"Freedom" thread or something

Technically tax is theft, and in a purely ideal world Mr Shields is correct.
That being said most people, even hardcore libertarians, accept tax...even if it just to pay for the military, roads and police/fire services (I'll even take roads out). Pat is the only person I've met personally, espousing 100% volunteerism/free market.

Sooo we must try to find the fairest type of tax possible. Shame there's no way to agree on what's fair
Most liberals want re distribution masked under fairness (I was certainly one) and I do think many conservatives are
just pro wealthy and business, masked under flat and consumption taxes as fair. And many do honestly believe such things are fair of course. I still think a flat tax is naturally regressive, and consumption tax is very much so.

IMO to make it as fair as possible, taxes should be there to pay for services, and you should basically receive what you pay for. SS for example. It's already the worst rate of return for the wealthy, since benefits are skewed for the lesser off. I get that, but to achieve fairness either benefits should be leveled , or wealthy shouldn't have to pay. Otherwise it's redistributive. Which is fine if you want but can't claim fairness in my book.
I still like a progressive, low, simple tax system. No deductions, except maybe charity, and have investing earnings lumped as normal income. Put the top bracket at 25%, those who really earned their millions will see a cut and those just invest/move money around will see a moderate increase.

Or something like that Im trying to work my ramblings into a non fiction book, forgive me using this as a test.


Edited by JJLehto - December 02 2012 at 20:23

I don't look at taxation as punishment, but rather as one's civic duty to society at large.  As I've said before, taxes are part of the social contract.  I know I certainly don't feel "punished" when I pay my taxes every two weeks.  But, if you must look at taxes as punishment, look at it as punishment for greed, not success.  

The Doctor wrote: I don't look at taxation as punishment, but rather as one's civic duty to society at large.  As I've said before, taxes are part of the social contract.  I know I certainly don't feel "punished" when I pay my taxes every two weeks.  But, if you must look at taxes as punishment, look at it as punishment for greed, not success.

Look at it however you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people respond to incentives. When you make earning money more expensive, people won' put as much effort into earning money. And since earning money is what drives our economy and increases the standard of living for everyone, it is problematic to disincentivize it.

Do you really think monetary success is always the result of greed, that all ambition is reprehensible?

Lew Rockwell had a nice little piece about the consumption tax recently.  Here's a quote:  "Actually, it is just as coercive as any tax. Under the income tax, if I earn income and don't pay the tax, I can be fined and jailed. Under the consumption tax, if I consume a taxed item and don't pay the tax, I get fined and jailed. It's true that I can choose not to consume that item. Similarly under the income tax, I can choose not to earn income. Nothing is voluntary if I am not permitted to exempt myself. There is no such thing as a voluntary tax. If there were, it would be called something else."

He goes on to state/ask: "Let's not reform taxes. Let's eliminate them, starting with the income tax. That is not unrealistic. The income tax this year will yield $1 trillion for the federal government. Cutting that amount gives us a budget equal to the federal budget of 1987. Was the government intolerably small back then?"

stonebeard wrote: If you believe a government should exist, you should probably believe in some form of taxation to be consistent.

How's that?

If government does a good job, then people should be willing to pay for it.

stonebeard wrote: thellama73 wrote: stonebeard wrote: If you believe a government should exist, you should probably believe in some form of taxation to be consistent. How's that? Are there any other options to fund governments that are realistic?

We fund many other things we like without taxation. Wikipedia, Youtube, eBay, the NFL, Hollywood, etc. Why is government fundamentally different than those things?

JJLehto wrote: Yes, but remember this is really the: Borderline Anarchist thread

A laughy face isn't an argument.  Anything wrong with borderline anarchy?

Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Yes, but remember this is really the: Borderline Anarchist thread A laughy face isn't an argument.  Anything wrong with borderline anarchy?

Good thing I wasn't making an argument, just an observable fact  (makes no sense but might as well keep my poor smiley use going!)

Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Yes, but remember this is really the: Borderline Anarchist thread A laughy face isn't an argument.  Anything wrong with borderline anarchy? Good thing I wasn't making an argument, just an observable fact  (makes no sense but might as well keep my poor smiley use going!) Can you tell me something that is an unobservable fact?

Ghosts.