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Why can't I stand most modern prog? |
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5980 |
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Very thoughtful of you, Roger. Having been through all of that and still living, there is a lot of truth to this, sadly (old hippie that I am). Those ideals (not the drugs part of it, really, I was young enough to note that they tended to destroy people, so dabbled way less than those just a little older than me), informed much of my world view, personal taste and politics. We really did believe we could change the world through music. I do wonder sometimes if the current state of the world will give rise once again to a similar movement, but as you said, it requires a special set of circumstances. However, history tends to be cyclical. It would be different, but have many of the hallmarks of other major cultural shifts. That being said, on the topic, I love all of the usual progenitors of prog and saw most of them live (many, I saw multiple times) and also love a lot of modern prog too, and doubtless will love some I missed along the way.
Edited by Snicolette - November 26 2019 at 08:57 |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I sure could do with some flower power right about now. The toxicity in the air is simply suffocating. Glad to know, though, that you got to see those bands live. I love a lot of modern prog too, albeit usually on the metal side of things, and was delighted to catch The Ocean (from Germany) earlier in the year.
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5980 |
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Yes, there is so much hatred just for having different opinions. You have to be able to have discourse with people who disagree with you to at least come to an understanding of why they feel that way. If not, you end up with too much of the concept of "the other," demonizing where it's really not that deep. Even in matters such as divergence of opinions on art. However, one must also know when to recognize the demons where they do exist.
I am not as big of fan of the metal side, but I do enjoy some of that current acts that mix it in and also some of those who came more from the metal world that are now progressing, if you will.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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But you will anyway.
In all mythology there is a chance, however slim, that there is a grain of truth rooted beneath all the exaggerated story telling and there is little doubt that somewhere in the mists of time tours did fail for many different reasons and bands were dropped by their record labels for various reasons, though quite what The Beastie Boys' hydraulic phallus has to do with Progressive Rock is way beyond my ken but at least it's considerably cheaper than the fanciful $100,000,000's of the previous diatribe that we had to endure
Ah crap. I'm terrible at cryptic riddles. Is this a story about The Monkees? My sister loved them
Yup, record contracts are a minefield and when you sign one while still being technically signed to one that's just gone bankrupt the lawyers will make a fortune out of the resulting mess. As Madan pointed out the record INDUSTRY is a business, which means that all the people who work in them, including Richard 'Montgolfier' Branson, are business men. Do you know who are terrible business men? Musicians. Do you know who are worse business men? Artists (that's why there are so many starving artists). Read the bloody contract before signing it. Eyes open, ears open, keep your hands in your pockets and your mouth shut.
I just pointed out the error in your fanciful imaginings and in doing so dumbed it down to your level of comprehension ~ no business model can be explained in 395 heavily sarcastic words, of course it's more complicated than either of us have described it, but it's a fart sight closer to mine than yours. But romantic? get real for pity sake before you damage something.
Who ever said that artists have to be philanthropists? Where is that written in Pedro's big book of how to be a famous rock star? Oh, and John Paul Jones... I wonder what he did when he wasn't looking like a History teacher who'd wandered on stage by mistake? *shrug* I guess we'll never know...
Relevance? Nil. Over here we aren't that big on radio - yet despite that we've somehow managed to spawn and nurture a surprising number of divergent music genres over the past sixty years. Funny old world
But sadly that's how it was. Hey ho.
No you're not. Nothing you do here even remotely resembles "standing up for the bands". Last week you had the barefaced nerve to berate a musician on this forum for simply asking people to buy his new album. You're a bloody hypocrite.
I'm not standing up for anything, I merely pointed out a bit of reality for you to counter the utter drivel you dribbled. I never said that I supported or condoned it any more than I would have registered any support for Henry Ford just by explaining how an automobile production line worked. What a strange person you are.
What on earth are you prattling on about. I think you've broken the universal translator with that stream of unconsciousness.
Oh you poor deluded muppet. This imaginary world you live in does not exist, at least not outside a fictional hippy commune that bears no resemblance to the patchouli soaked reality of pooping into a hole in the ground after living on a diet of mung beans and alfalfa seeds. What you preach is dangerous because it perpetuates the myth that all art is free and funding is unlimited, and that there is no such thing as bad art and everyone has an artist locked within them. There was never a time when that was true, even Ugg living in the Lascaux caves had to earn his keep despite being a dab-hand with the raw sienna pigments. Edited by Dean - November 26 2019 at 09:35 |
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5980 |
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Not sure if this has been addressed about the old days of the business, at least in the US (and may still be true with the more traditional labels, I don't know), but musicians who signed contracts with recording companies also had to pay back the company until the company's investment was recouped before they earned money on the recordings themselves. So advances were just that, essentially loans.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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M27Barney ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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^ what Dean says with huge hairy bollocks dangling above the stage...😎
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Absolutely. I did consider working that into my
But yes, the fabled Advance is not free money, it is an advance on future earnings. If you go to your boss and ask for an advance on your pay that money will be deducted from your next paycheque and the same is true for recording artists. The record company gives them an advance on their future earnings - if the album sells well they'll deduct that advance from the sales revenue before paying royalties but if it tanks then the company writes off the loss and the artist walks away debt free. With some contracts the advance is used to pay for recording the album, in other the company pays for the album and deducts the costs from the sales. Nothing about this is underhand, secret or dishonest ~ it is sound business practice. |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
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^ All true and standard practice. But I have heard one or two mid level record execs say things to artists like "don't worry about the advance kid, you're gonna be huge!" They weren't. But as you said, they walked away not owing anything to the record company
Edited by SteveG - November 26 2019 at 12:59 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16612 |
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Not even close!
And this is where a lot of honesty comes in ... and sometimes, I guess that a smile hides the truth? AND is allowed?
2019/2020 is quite different from 1970/1971 ... when a lot of radio was very valuable, and this is the main reason why the FM radio situation in America was so important to the development of "progressive rock" ... it provided a stream of newer music (NEWER), than before, and the sales verified them ... with the weird result that almost all of those bands and their sales disappeared over night ... they did not get the air play anymore. Even PF suffered, until DSOTM hit really big. But while the behemoth got bigger, it hurt many other plays on the FM band, and eventually, because the listenership changed to over 75% in Southern California, it became the greatest heist in the history of the media ... all the independent stations bought and their formats changed ... no more freebies! In reading the cousins book, and trying to understand and figure out the FM radio thing in that country, was quite different ... but I have a feeling that the BBC did all it could to kill it for a long time. It might have not won, but I am not sure, and can't really say that the whole thing took off as strongly as it did in America, although I concede that the press in England, were quite a bit more appreciative of the newer music, than in America where the few magazines were still trashing all new music, and they had a party on TFTO when it came out ... the saddest thing in the media I have ever seen! AND, I admit that I am not the best spokes person for this, and that someone like Jim Ladd or Guy Guden would probably tell you a lot more ... than I could possibly know. That a lot of that music has lasted, for me, is a testament to the time, the place, and the complete lack of respect a lot of people have for that time and its adventures, in other areas, which some still love to comment was stupid, and even in this post is considered wrong and fighting for the wrong thing ... the same thing happened in a few countries in Europe and they did not fail, and times changed. ... and personally, your notions are just as "romantic" as mine ... because not everyone is as badly informed as you would otherwise suggest, and then not everyone is the ultimate radical, or hippie (as you call -- since you hate them!) ... that makes music. There were a lot of folks that made music, that did not have the sales and went on just fine ... and they are appreciated nonetheless. Your attitude is mean spirited and at times malicious ... I have, at least ... found some very good comments, even if I disagree with you ... but to you, the Scrooge is out en force ... you lambaste and think you are the god of truth! You are nothing of the sort ... you are no different a man than any others! Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy of many posts kissing you. Many of those folks did not even read a single line you or I wrote, is my bet!
Edited by moshkito - November 27 2019 at 07:36 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20377 |
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I'm very happy Dean is back & I certainly read his ripostes, they are generally informative and entertaining.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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miamiscot ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 23 2014 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 3477 |
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If I had to pick one LP for you to hear it would be: Wobbler From Silence To Somewhere
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I wasn't aware this was a guessing game, but hey ho. Sadly apart from the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band and Alberto y Lost Trios Paranoias I'm not very "up" on comedic musical groups so unless you ever deem to tell us who the merry hell you were waffling on about I'm afraid this meandering little cul de sac has come to a dead end. Please remember we do not share your very narrow band of location specific memories and (thankfully) cannot see in side your head, so if you want to share this drivel with us then you are going to have to be a lot more coherent.
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Halle-bloody-lujah! Finally. Yup, I'm not a nice person when I don't want to be, I'm just a poor sap who's grown tired of listening to your broken record. I took a two-year break from this place and came back to see you still taking snide pot-shots at everyone who looks after this site and everyone who uses it. I can excuse these new guys who bitch and moan because they know no better, but not you. No apologies, no regrets. ![]() Edited by Dean - November 27 2019 at 09:19 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
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Back to the topic, I do feel that there was a natural decline in prog popularity with advent of punk, etc., as well as the fact that many of the break through albums like CTTE, TAAB, DSotM. ItCotCK, etc. were done and gone.The high point of prog in it's commercial appeal had already been reached in the early 70s and that had an effect on it's waning popularity too. Edited by SteveG - November 29 2019 at 06:15 |
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npjnpj ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
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I've asked myself why I don't really connect to a lot of Prog albums released in later decades, and the two main points I come up with are: Although there are exceptions, a lot of the albums I've heard over the last 10 years or so are pretty indistinguishable from each other. Meaning that I can listen any new release from a band I'm familiar with (without knowing who it is), and it could be any artist from a dozen or more. As I said, that doesn't apply to all of them, but to too many to feel comfortable. I used to be able to listen to a few bars of music from a new album (blindfolded, say) and know immediately who it is. It's as if musicians of later generations have developed great technical mastery but no style. Most classic Prog had sections that rocked. It was just as important as the atmospheric parts; in fact the music lived and breathed through the contrast. A lot of Prog artists don't do that any more. It's all so level and unexciting. The worst offenders here seem to be the bedroom pajama wizards of keyboard. Is it just my impression, or has this been especially pronounced in the last two or three years? It's difficult for me to find the new music that appeals to me, much more than it used to be.
Edited by npjnpj - December 01 2019 at 12:18 |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 41793 |
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when I read only the title of this thread, all that I think of is "how should I know?".
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5153 |
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Time will tell, I wonder which albums from the 2010s we will be posting and polling about in 2040 or 2050.
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Manuel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12521 |
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You’ve made a great observation here. I feel the same in many ways, that’s probably why I can’t get into the prog-metal genre, and a lot of the new bands and their music have a lot of influence from it. |
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fronobulax ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() Joined: September 01 2017 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 44 |
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I'm not sure if anyone has touched on this having just skimmed through the responses, but would anyone agree that some Neo-prog sounds kind of bland due to the technology used? I have thought for some time that "pro tools" and other digital platforms have a "sound" that rubs me the wrong way. I gravitate towards seventies recordings because I like the sound of tape saturation, even when transferred to the first generation CD releases. (re-masters, even newer ones, are sometimes worse, i.e. "loudness wars.") I prefer the sound of older drum kits as well. One engineer explained to me that since the eighties many "rock" drum manufacturers have built their kits for maximum pounding and loudness which removes some of the "woody" character of say a vintage Bruford tone. Obviously the major culprit here is the keyboard tech. Early prog seems to create much much of its tonal palette from monophonic or duophonic synths where the parts fit into arrangements more like a flute or oboe...a single line that says everything directly and with cutting force. I find that samples of vintage synths can sound great, but that the older gear made you play the part a certain way because of the limitations. I tend to not enjoy Mr Rudess and Mr Morse as much because I keep wishing they were using proper gear and not samples. (in the same way that you might wish to hear Mozart or even a brand new composition on a proper Stradivarius and not a cheap knock-off violin.) Don't even get me started on software compression and "plug-ins." I realize these are the modern tools of the trade, I'm just saying that maybe some, not all, gravitate towards certain recordings for some of these reasons...??? What do you think?
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scruffydragon ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: trowbridge Status: Offline Points: 250 |
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I have never really known why I don't get on with so much modern Prog. Been trying to come to some conclusion on that one for the last 10 years or more.
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