Prog, Rolling Stone & Class Distinctions.

^Egad! That really is mixing oil and water! 

SteveG wrote: Svetonio wrote: SteveG wrote: ^Good points. Symphonic prog did seem to be RS's  real enemy and the groups listed above are what I considered to be leaning more toward Crossover Prog as opposed to full on prog, and is the real reason why they are listed or rated by RS. However, two Santana's, one Captain Beefheart's album and two The Mothers of Invention's albums are on the list; those albums are prog rock albums and very important albums of our beloved genre but not a kind of prog rock that we called *Crossover Prog* decades later. Also, Brian Eno's Another Green World  is on the list and that album also have nothing to do with a kind of modern prog rock that we call *Crossover Prog*, e.g. listed Radiohead's albums that, I can bet in a hard cash, the RS journalists never were recognized as *Crossover Prog* as well.   Btw, Steve, do you agree that it remains a mystery how a good guy like Brian Eno - who was an art student & who was spent almost all 70s at his apartment or in the studio - found his place on the RS list which is full of the albums by major rock desperados? Isn't a kind of mistery how RS boys, who evidently hate Symphonic rock (or even the worst case is really possible: they thought maybe that Symphonic rock is not rock at all as well as some people think that e.g. Knifeworld's Send Him A Seaworthy is not a prog rock song) that they forgot that in spite of those fanatics of Symphonic rock that to decorate their list with e.g. Discipline by King Crimson, and therefore that Discipline the album that to be the only one KC's album on that RS list? Well, it shows all the silly spirit of all of those kind of lists, methinks. And consenquently none of these "the greatest..." lists can not explain that class distinction in 70s as a pretty complex sociological & curturally phenomenon that was very influential on British rock (in general) in 70s without a shade of doubt . As for Eno's inclusion on the RS "greatest of all time list",  I can only guess that Eno's producing credits of Bowie and U2 is what really swayed their decision. But again, I'm just speculating.

I understand you (Mr Eno produced also Remain In Light ) but then it should be far more logical that they were put on the list My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts  instead of Another Green World.

^ Roxy Music has always been a favourite of people who otherwise despise prog as well.

HackettFan wrote: uduwudu wrote: Does this publication or any of it's sympathizers think those of a say, working class disposition, not have the necessary qualities to appreciate anything more than something basic? Worse, that something really crude and basic is all popular music should have for it's aspirations? The implication being we humble ordinaries are incapable of enjoying music without assigning some non musical value to it? A working class fellow like Steve Hackett, for example.

Tony Banks remarked in a filmed interview somewhere remarked that when pop and rock existed as Genesis emerged and the more classically oriented young musicians of the day (him and co) merely added their input. Bill Bruford (I think) also commented in much the same way, demurring any pretension as he would.

That was all really. Some sophistication to see if it worked. (I think it did...) But human nature being as suspicious and conservative as it is, when some publication plumps an appropriately inflammatory piece of prose down in front of people to be provocative it causes dissension, discussion and diatribes.

Does this publication or any of it's sympathizers think those of a say, working class disposition, not have the necessary qualities to appreciate anything more than something basic? Worse, that something really crude and basic is all popular music should have for it's aspirations? The implication being we humble ordinaries are incapable of enjoying music without assigning some non musical value to it?

I say, never mind that bollocks it's only rock and roll. Ours is no disgrace!

The Dark Elf wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Ain't this all about what 'names' are hip to drop from any given genre plus a smidgin of passive racism from white male journalists? It seems pretty obvious that everyone wants to appear 'sophisticated' rather than 'class conscious'. Those perennial darlings of the Rawk press Lou Reed and the Stooges often bluffed John Coltrane as a stated influence with precisely zero evidence in either's output, Maureen Tucker passed off some incredibly crap drumming as her embrace of 'african rhythmic concepts' while every Post-Punk band trots out Miles Davis, Hendrix, Sun Ra, Can, Bob Marley, Kraftwerk, Stockhausen, Mingus, Beefheart et al as avowed inspiration (the deader the better, everyone loves what can never come back) Until such time as we can find a classical composer who is edgy/right on/dissolute/drug dependent/promiscuous/provocative/black and preferably dead, then those who quote or cite inspiration from classical forms will continue to be beaten with the class stick. Wait up....George Gershwin is considered hip by Rock journalists   But...but...wait...I think George Gershwin is hip! Egad, I've been stigmatized!

I like to think that neither of us is racist so do you have any point to make?...


Edited by ExittheLemming - January 24 2015 at 06:17

ExittheLemming wrote: Ain't this all about what 'names' are hip to drop from any given genre plus a smidgin of passive racism from white male journalists? It seems pretty obvious that everyone wants to appear 'sophisticated' rather than 'class conscious'. Those perennial darlings of the Rawk press Lou Reed and the Stooges often bluffed John Coltrane as a stated influence with precisely zero evidence in either's output, Maureen Tucker passed off some incredibly crap drumming as her embrace of 'african rhythmic concepts' while every Post-Punk band trots out Miles Davis, Hendrix, Sun Ra, Can, Bob Marley, Kraftwerk, Stockhausen, Mingus, Beefheart et al as avowed inspiration (the deader the better, everyone loves what can never come back) Until such time as we can find a classical composer who is edgy/right on/dissolute/drug dependent/promiscuous/provocative/black and preferably dead, then those who quote or cite inspiration from classical forms will continue to be beaten with the class stick. Wait up....George Gershwin is considered hip by Rock journalists

Edited by The Dark Elf - January 23 2015 at 22:38

HackettFan wrote: It doesn't make any sense to me how being intrigued by more musical intricacy has anything to with a class system, unless your taking the position that you have to be from the upper class to appreciate that sort of stimulation. However, that proposition is so patently false that I don't see how it gets much mileage. Progressive Rock is actually quite rebellious. It challenges conventional popular approaches to music. Rolling Stone's philosophy of music is quite conservative. They epitomize the conventions of the industry that Prog rebelled against. Rolling Stone therefore attempts to promote the acceptance of its conservative philosophy by redefining rebelliousness in terms of class distinctions. It's a red herring because it has nothing to do with musical rebellion. That's my take on it, anyway.

As someone that's lived on and off in the U.K in the late seventies and early eighties, I can assure you that class distinctions did indeed exist and that some Duke or Duchess may have appreciated that the classical and chamber music that they were weaned on was now mixed with rock and roll. But that would be a extremely small exception.

Edited by SteveG - January 23 2015 at 08:40

SteveG wrote: Svetonio wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: rogerthat wrote: ^^^  Not just French bands but American bands too.  I remember reading a rather needlessly scathing review of a Steely Dan concert, apparently written back in 1972.  I don't grudge the reviewer his opinion but he basically devoted the entire first para to arguing how American bands tended to be just an overhype unlike their (apparently far superior) peers in Britain.   If you look at the imbecilic RS "500 Greatest Albums of All Time", Prog is only represented by 4 Pink Floyd albums (DSotM is the highest at #43, followed at intervals by The Wall, Wish You Were Here and Piper at the Gates of Dawn), and Jethro Tull's Aqualung at #337. That's it. There are any number of asinine albums strewn like cow sh*te across a pasture, but that is all you get if you love prog.   No Yes, no Genesis (although Peter Gabriel's So shows up late), no King Crimson, no ELP and no Rush. Look for yourself:   http://www.listology.com/jimmysmits/list/rolling-stone-500-greatest-albums-all-time-2012-updated-list-ones-i-own       I agree that it was a stupid thing to list nothing by KC's, Yes, Rush, ELP's or Genesis' catalogue. Btw, I'm also wonder that RS didn't listed Tim Buckley's Goodbye And Hello, Starsailor  or Lorca. However, I still found some of the great prog rock albums by the acts that are already in the Prog Archives' full-prog sections...     Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band's Trout Mask Replica # 60     Radiohead's Kid A # 67     Miles Davis' Bitches Brew # 95     Radiohead's The Bends # 111     Steely Dan's Aja #145     Santana' s/t  # 149     Radiohead's OK Computer # 162   Todd Rundgren's Something/Anything? # 173   Nine Inch Nails' The Downward Spiral # 201     Santana's Abraxas # 207     Steely Dan's Can't Buy A Thrill # 240           The Mothers of Invention's Freak Out! # 246       Kraftwerk's Trans-Europe Express # 256     Blood, Sweat & Tears'  Child Is Father to the Man # 266     The Mothers of Invention's We're Only In It For The Money # 297     Radiohead's Amnesiac # 320     Radiohead's n Rainbows # 336   Roxy Music's Siren # 374   Björk's Post # 376 Steely Dan's Pretzel Logic # 386 Roxy Music's  For Your Pleasure # 396   Brian Eno's Another Green World # 429     Brian Eno's Here Come the Warm Jets # 432               I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but where are Yes, Genesis, etc. Most of these groups are really cross over prog, like Steely Dan or BS&T.

Crossover Prog is full-prog category. Above listed albums are  full-prog albums. Of course, it is evidently that RS hate Symphonic rock with a passion, and I already said that it was stupid thing for RS to list nothing by KC or (early) Genesis or Yes ( e.g. Close to the Edge must be on their list anyway ) but you can trust me that it's actually nothing new to me 'cause I meet a lot of old proggers who never loved to listen Symphonic rock albums; they were loved The Mothers of Invention, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Gong, Hatfield and The North, Robert Wyatt, Can and so on, and disliked these 70s Symphonic rock acts as ELP, Genesis or Yes.

Edited by Svetonio - January 22 2015 at 22:17

It doesn't make any sense to me how being intrigued by more musical intricacy has anything to with a class system, unless your taking the position that you have to be from the upper class to appreciate that sort of stimulation. However, that proposition is so patently false that I don't see how it gets much mileage.

Progressive Rock is actually quite rebellious. It challenges conventional popular approaches to music. Rolling Stone's philosophy of music is quite conservative. They epitomize the conventions of the industry that Prog rebelled against. Rolling Stone therefore attempts to promote the acceptance of its conservative philosophy by redefining rebelliousness in terms of class distinctions. It's a red herring because it has nothing to do with musical rebellion. That's my take on it, anyway.