Can the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays? |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: February 25 2015 at 23:40 | ||||
Yep! Edited by Blacksword - February 25 2015 at 23:41 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 01:35 | ||||
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 01:41 | ||||
Indeed that is a great album although it never felt that 'retro' to me. In fact its a unique sounding album to my ears and that's what apparently we want.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 01:45 | ||||
I guess he was going for the former as that is the point of the thread. Can you recreate something that has already been done? Probably to some extent but clearly inspiration should lead you onto a different path otherwise its ,as others have suggested, a mere 'tribute'.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 02:05 | ||||
I couldn't agree more. British were invented Symphonic rock as a sub-genre of Progressive rock as well; that was really great and only a madman can deny that, but Progressive rock was invented by Frank Zappa with Freak Out! the album i.e. the Progressive rock was invented in America; it's just a fact of the history of rock'n'roll. p.s. Btw, as there are some people who will say that Freak Out! is "not prog", I can only to remind them of that bullsh*t dilemma whether the symph rock is really prog or not because it relies on Classical music.
Edited by Svetonio - February 26 2015 at 04:28 |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 02:12 | ||||
LOL no not me, I'm non-musician, but - it's already recreated! I posted some beautiful examples of that retro-prog in this thread.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 08:51 | ||||
Supposedly Jimmy Page didn't credit the Blues masters on Led Zeppelin albums. I don't know enough about it, but have heard it through working musicians for years. I tend to believe that a minority of British musicians from the London Blues scene were like that and that the majority of them were sincere and respected the Blues masters for who they were. Keith Richards was insulted when he came to America and witnessed one of his heroes, Muddy Waters ...painting the ceiling of a recording studio. I can't possibly sum up the difference in the amount of people who were prejudice in the U.S. and England, but I do know that the British welcomed the Blues masters and I do know that in the 60's it felt like a majority of people in the U.S. were acting out discrimination towards the Black community. I recall an attitude in the Blues masters during the late 60's. It was sometimes obvious on films and recordings where a Blues master would be yelling at a British musician...for example..."No! No! No!..that's not the way I play it!" "Always go to the top!" or Chuck Berry yelling at Keith Richards...."Don't touch my guitar!" "Don't go near my guitar!" "You're talkin" about playin" things right and you're not getting" this right!" "You need work!"...and then Eric Clapton or Keith Richards would be saying "Okay, your right mate" It seemed like a situation where the British were reaching out and the Blues masters were saying "It's a little too late now guys, we are in our 60's and 70's now." "We've been to hell and back and now you want to feed us candy" I don't know for sure, but it certainly seemed like that. Then there was B.B. King saying that no one gave him the chills like Peter Green...so it's difficult to say how a majority of them felt. Many of the Blues masters had health problems during the London Blues scene and couldn't tolerate much. I also remember traveling in the early 80's and seeing the Rock n' Roll king Chuck Berry walking in the venue and saying to the owner..."I want my four thousand now!" "Not after the show!" "Either pay me now, or I leave!"...so maybe the Blues masters and the Rock n' Rollers were hasty for reasons unknown to many of us. I also recall traveling the road and meeting British musicians who laughed at their own scene and stressed that I should be more into American music as if nothing else mattered. That was a big blow for me considering I grew up on the British Invasion and here were skilled British musicians traveling the U.S. making a joke out of The Beatles, Eric Clapton (Cream), and most of the stuff I worshipped. It was a letdown to be honest because at the time..I was bored with American music and found British Rock to be an escape for me. In the meantime, America..ironically didn't seem to accept Black music as much as the British overall. I traveled for 30 years and everytime I crossed paths with a British musician, they just simply didn't want to hear about the music of their country and were quite dismissive of it and further tried to persuade me to appreciate American music. Do you find that to be strange and awkward?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20503 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 09:03 | ||||
For me there's traditional American acoustics blues, American electric blues and the English hybrid of electric blues rock. All are playing a form of blues but the originals will always get the nod from me. The authenticity and passion of turn of the century American blues artists simply cannot be conveyed by the later followers and emulators, so I think there's something to what Charles has stated. Later blues artists are technically advanced and often brilliant but lack soul, for want of a better word.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 12:32 | ||||
I personally feel that the racial tension in the 60's and 70's was completely out of bounds and way, way off into left field with riots frequently when I went to high school. It was actually very moronic for anyone to even consider holding some grudge or having inner hatred for another human being based on the color of their skin. In the Blues..we have Hoodoo songs which are really interesting, but we also have songs about women. Songs that tell a story about how a man cannot see his woman because she has been taken away by a slave owner. The Blues is like the "old testament" written by this race of people. How appreciative I am for it's existence..even though they experienced pain and suffering more than we could ever realize, the Blues Master's music gained the interest of the British and they created all the INTERESTING Rock music as a result.British guitarists in particular had a way of phrasing and making sounds that many American guitarists in the 60's were baffled by ...or even the thought itself...and it became the ultimate experience for me. This was in the 60's and people in America were just beginning to understand George Harrison's guitar playing. In America...we had The Ventures, Chet Atkins, B.B. King, Mike Bloomfield, several other important players, but beyond that mention of names and their legacy, hardly anyone understood how something so original could suddenly appear and to be giving them a real challenge. Like when Eric Clapton first appeared in America on the front cover of the John Mayall's Bluesbreakers album...which that was like giving the local guitarists in town some fire to practice more, have a REAL reason to do it, and work feverishly at playing at least one song from the album and not caring about how long it would take for the process to be complete.
When the intensity of interest developed in the U.S. for British guitarists ...it developed a different interest in writing. It was Blues Rock...but other elements of music being fused had more to do with Rock music changing or even progressing. This kind of writing existed in Rock from 1969 to 1974. Within those 5 years ...many Rock albums contained a very serious approach in blending different styles and the performance on an instrument. When I was a kid...I thought the most exciting thing to do would be forming a band like The Who. The reason being that I was bored with American music. I was bored with Surf Music, Rock n' Roll, Pop Music, musicals, and music recitals. The Who had a entire different personality about music that influenced generations of American musicians. No one can deny the extreme impact British musicians/writers had on American musicians. I think it is sad that any Blues purist would have a negative attitude about the dawning of the British musicians and the American Blues masters. After all, the British welcomed Jimi Hendrix. We did not.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20503 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 12:39 | ||||
^That's certainly no negative attitude on my part, just a truthful observation. As far as electric blues players go, Stevie Ray Vaughan is my hero. His guitar playing does the talking for him, so for me it's a different trip altogether.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 17:11 | ||||
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6755 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 17:29 | ||||
SRV was amazing, and he died a bluesman's death. He played the blues. I wept when he died and played my guitar.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 17:47 | ||||
A "philosophical issue" would be if I wrote, for example, a hypothesis that Progressive rock was emerging in several different places and over different timeframes that are independent of one another.
Edited by Svetonio - February 26 2015 at 18:16 |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 18:28 | ||||
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6755 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 18:52 | ||||
Back to the OP's intent, "Can the early 70s prog sound be cloned nowadays?"
It is instructive to do a bit of research - "to clone" means "to make an exact copy of (a person, animal or plant) I don't think we are talking exactly of doing that - rather, making new music that hews very closely to the 70's prog formula = vocal harmonies (usually), odd time signatures, rock instrumentation (bass, drum, guitar) with some odd bits tossed in (organ, Mellotron, synth, piano), and perhaps visionary/mystical lyrical content. Many have tried, but few have succeeded. I think that the preexisting catalog of prog music actually deters experimentation, as the originators did. Should we be using even more unconventional instruments, like trombone, tuba, etc.? Or different influences besides European musical forms? Some bands do this and are quite successful at it. |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:17 | ||||
Of Things That Never Were The Worm Ouroboros Eclectic Prog Review by Sagichim Every once in a while there comes a new band that manages to sweep me off my feet so easily, sometimes with an exceptional high level of playing, sometimes with a new and fascinating sound and sometimes with an out of the box kind of ideas. The Worm Ouroboros have simply done that with pure musical talent and a wise intellectual six sense, man this album is just down right beautiful and contains a few soaring moments that makes my heart skip a beat. It's one of those albums where it doesn't matter what the band is playing it just feels right and good, and it makes me even more amazed that I know it's their first album. It seems these young fellas have cracked the code and found the secret combination between simple melodies and tasty instrumental interplay. They have some kind of naive simplicity and modesty to their playing and arrangements that honestly not a lot of bands have. But this is only part of the deal here. The Worm Ouroboros are a new band coming from Minsk Belarus, but they were playing since 2006 so they are not so new in playing together. One thing is for sure these guys have absorbed a lot of influences from the 70's prog scene, I think you'll be happy to find out there's a massive influence from the Canterbury scene/Prog Folk and symphonic prog, where I'm most reminded of Caravan, Camel and the playfulness of Moving Gelatine Plates. There's also some psychedelic overtones, nothing's too trippy but it is still there hovering above. Funk or should I say groove is another style that found its way into the mix, these guys can definitely swing when they need to. This meal wouldn't be perfect without a desert so this time the band is serving Zehul! Now I sure didn't see this coming! For those of you who doesn't like the classic Zehul shouldn't have any trouble with this, since it is still melodic and quite grooving. I can't say this album heavily rocks, it's not the point here, but I sure do love when they get that itch! As part of their intricate arrangements, they do feel the need of a rocking outburst every now and then, which gives another dimention to this wonderful band. The album is centered around the quality interplay and song writing of Sergey Gvozdyukevich (vocals, keyboards, acoustic guitars, flute) and Vladimir Sobolevsky (electric and acoustic guitars). They are backed by the fantastic Alexey Zapolsky (bass) and Eugene Zarkhin (drums). The final touch of Vitaly Appow (reeds) completes the picture and adding a lot of depth to the arrangements, complementing everyone's playing. There isn't any prog from the weird zone (at least for those of you who knows weird bands), Worm is focusing on beautiful melodies using a rich sound, nothing's sacchrine, not at all. There isn't any unique instrumentation, we've heard all of that already but for some reason it doesn't sound like your ordinary and plain 'ol flute, acoustic guitar and keys thing. The level of songwriting and simplicity takes those few notes to a higher level, it just works! the connection and interplay between the musicians is fabulous, I can easily put them into the 'I stunned you with 4 notes' club. "L'Impasse Sainte Bérégonne" starts this journey with a weird and disturbing atmosphere. A huge bass and flute leads the way as it gets more intense and breaks with an excellent guitar solo, check out that fierce flute towards the end, that would make Ian Anderson think "why didn't I think of that?". The next "Shelieth" is totally different and shows what a brilliant musician Sergey Gvozdyukevich is, using all kinds of warm delicate keyboard sounds, he's very eclectic in his playing and in his sound choices, so this one sounds very diverse and refreshing, accompanied by a restrained but effective guitar playing. Man that melody in the closing part is simply gorgeous!!! and is weaved into the song so cleverly. The band are including here a few short Folky instrumental interludes between the main songs, needless to say that every one of them is stunning in its own special way. I have to say this time it doesn't sound detached at all, on the contrary, it only adds to the overall feel of the album. My favourite one is "The Magi" with of course a beautiful acoustic guitar and flute, but what impresses me most here is the heavily accented vocals, so melodic, I love how he sings this one. "The Pear-Shaped Man" and my special favourite "Pirates in Pingaree" shows their outstanding song writing ideas. It doesn't matter where the song is heading they can easily turn you over with an amazing simple melody that would make you wanna weep in joyous happiness (Pirates in Pingaree). "Soleil Noir" is calmer and focusing on vocals but it sure does gets much more intense towards the end, fabulous. "The Curfew" is the main surprise here although it is quite different harbouring pure Zehul elements it doesn't sound too far off at all but still keeping the line of the album, it only goes to show how brilliant and sophisticated this band really is. The deep bass and dark zehulic vocals lead the way here sounding like Weidorje, but not too long when they suddenly go funky! Oh yeah! "Return To The Cold Sea Of Nothing" is the final 10 minute epic, continuing the high level of playing by all members. This is absolutely one of the most thrilling and promising modern albums I've come to hear, I think you'll find it a very easy and captivating listen. Definitely deserves the fifth star, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, DON'T MISS OUT ON THIS ONE! Edited by Svetonio - February 26 2015 at 23:24 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:22 | ||||
Well, there was a prime example of the world's most pointless waste of thread-space. Just a link would have done.
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What?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 19:26 | ||||
How about a video to go w/it.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12701 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 20:17 | ||||
For a blues snob, you seem rather light in the blues history department. The history of blues composition is a history of cannibalism. Because of lax copyright laws from the 20s to the 60s, songs were retitled, lyrics were reworked or whole songs were simply taken by competing blues players. Are you aware how many times "House of the Rising Sun" had been played by the time The Animals got a hit out of it? I personally have versions by Georgia Turner, Ledbelly, Woody Guthrie and Nina Simone (and Frijid Pink as well!), and that is just the tip of the iceberg for a song that's been around since the 19th century. One of B.B. King's standards "Everyday I Have the Blues" was borrowed from Elmore James who got it from Memphis Slim. The song "Baby Please Don't Go" went through Big Joe Williams, Big Bill Broonzy, Lightnin' Hopkins and Muddy Waters before Van Morrison and Them made it a hit in the 60s. And before Eric Clapton and Duane Allman jammed to "Key to the Hghway" there was the prime example of blues theft. Charlie Segar originally penned 'Key to the Highway', but Big Bill Broonzy somehow got credited along with Segar for writing the song, because, as Broonzy put it, "Some of the verses he [Segar] was singing" were the same as Broonzy had sung in the south. Broonzy then made the ultimate comment about blues music: "You take one song and make fifty out of it...just change it a little bit." The only reason we talk about Page and Zeppelin's court settlement with Willie Dixon is that blues had become big money at last and copyright laws were tougher by the 60s and 70s. Before that, no one gave a damn who played what song because no one made a dime. So, claiming Clapton was a rip-off is naïve in extremis. Actually, it was par for the course from the very beginning of blues.
Look, just because Hound Dog played Tescos and Silvertones doesn't make him the prime blues guitarist. The man who Hound Dog looked up to and was most influenced by, Elmore James, played National and Kay guitars (not cheap Sears models by any means). Muddy Waters played a Gibson L-5 and Telecasters. B.B. King played Gibsons. Albert Collins played Telecasters. Albert King was famous for his Gibson flying V's. John Lee Hooker was an Epiphone man. No one wanted to play crappy guitars, and if they did, they bought better ones immediately when they could afford them (like every guitarist that wasn't born rich, including yours truly). |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: February 26 2015 at 23:23 | ||||
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