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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 15:10
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

"Avant-garde you say? Sounds more like they avant-garde-a-clue! "  The late George Harrison remarking on a sixties era prog rock band. Guess who?
 
The Guess Who was prog rock? Oh, those wacky Canadians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 15:13
^LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 15:17
Although I believe "Running Back to Saskatoon" and "No Sugar Tonight" were both composed in sonata form.
 
Randy Bachman left Guess Who for BTO so he could pursue more prog compositions, hence Not Fragile.


Edited by The Dark Elf - April 14 2015 at 15:19
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 15:21
^you're on a roll, Greg! 

I think George the Great was talking about the first Genesis album, so he gets a pass on that one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 18:20
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
P.S. Tangentially speaking, I have always read that the term "Art Music" refers to classical music, as opposed to folk or popular music.
...and that is what it does refer to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 18:37
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

we should not misuse noun-phrases that have an accepted academic meaning, such as Art Music. If only to avoid confusion.

Unless we can't join those who accept it without objection, that is !! Sorry if those exchanges feel fruitless to you. I can't call it small-minded to argue about a noun phrase including an immense word like "art". That everyone should try and define what art is feels healthy. I'm happy to have my opinion shared on that topic at least once! Meanwhile, tons of PhDs are caught in endless fights for having the last word on a definition... As french wikipedia for "Art music" is "Musique savante"...
Musique Savante ("Learned Music" or "Erudite Music") is probably as emotive as «Musique Sérieuse» ("Serious Music") and «Grande Musique» ("Great Music") - the names alone suggest it represents an elite club of music that people want their favourite music to be a member of. For them, non-membership would imply that Prog is not serious music or that it is uneducated music.

The French wikipedia seems to have a very balanced and level-headed view of the subject that clarifies some of the points that the English-language version does not. Both state that it is distinguishable from Traditional Music and Popular Music.
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Some of those experiments work and some do not (as I'm sure you know from your own music)

My main chore is, that I'd struggle for a piece to sound the best possible, then it'd become cleared for a fondly celebrated upload. But months, even years later I'd find a better sounding option. Several pieces count ten or more (one counts even seventeen) test renderings, each one remixed several times because of EQing, volume, balance problems !
I never fret over a mix - If I can hear every instrument and it's placed in the soundstage where I want it then I'll leave it alone. At some point you have to say enough is enough and walk away or everything just gets muddier and muddier.
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

(It is actually unusual for me to go back to a piece of music and change it).

Happy man you are, unless you're meaning that you'd hear suspicious or ill-sounding parts but wouldn't trust your music enough and correct them !

I remixed the last two albums because I wanted to make vinyl versions and that required moving the Bass and Kick drums to mono, which also meant the EQ needed tweaking. As I was doing that I re-did the piano melody because it was annoying me.


Edited by Dean - April 14 2015 at 18:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2015 at 19:24
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Time to finally get around to typing my own thoughts on the subject. Like I said earlier I'm going mostly with my experiences from metal, punk and a couple adjacent genres like "desert rock". This is going to be really, really long. Might end up dwarfing the ones I linked to elsewhere.

I'm under the impression that most subcultural music genres are motivated by the fact that the people behind it have some kind of aesthetic preference that the pop/rock mainstream doesn't really cover. Maybe it's just on the aesthetic/stylistic level, maybe they don't really resonate with what the music stands for in terms of the deeper conceptual themes and philosophical ideals behind it. The point of most subcultures, not just those that revolve around a particular style of music,  is for people dissatisfied with the mainstream to create their own culture that functions from ideals they can make sense from - either to do so separately from the mainstream, perhaps with the hope of later influencing the culture at large into a course they find agreeable. 

The ideological aspect is in my experience more important to people from places like Eastern Europe, Latin America, South East Asia and the more religious parts of the United States... again, referring here to the metal/punk side of things. In North America and Western Europe, the outer shells of the subcultures co-exist with the mainstream where they mutually influence each other. The underground "harder cores" of the subcultures, the ones referred to in the essay linked to in the OP, are exclusive by design. They're the ones most willing to build up basement distros and do-it-yourself concert venues and whatnot, because they feel the least at home in the cultural mainstream hence being least willing to compromise with outsiders... basically they've got a kind of "patriotism" about their respective subcultures. The subcultural elites of are as a result rather suspicious towards outside influences, or new members that come in because they might not completely understand or even appreciate the ideals of the community, perhaps just appreciating the superficial without having to go through the experiences that a full on commitment would entail, most so the case when the respective subcultures become popular. 

This is where that Letter to the Underworld essay comes into relevance, because it means the genuinely dedicated in the underground end up going against each other instead of standing together. The woman who wrote it is not just an industrial/noise musician, but also a veteran of feminist/LGBT activism and oldschool hacker culture... she's in particular annoyed at the latter two coming into conflict with each other in recent years, when she finds both at risk of mainstream co-optation and wants them united against that front. As a result, her experiences with subcultural cannibalism are very harsh. (this might also explain why she frames the whole thing in a political angle)

Where the "art music" world comes in is that it's often drawn from people who also are dissatisfied with the popular culture, but perhaps from different backgrounds and dissatified for different reasons. To start with, as a result of being intertwined with academia and cultural (sometime also economic) elites it's made by and for people with higher social status than the general public. The subcultural art/music scenes, on the other hand, tend to attract people who are lower in social status. Either it's because they didn't really have that much of a choice in the matter, because of things like social class or ethnicity or sexual orientation etc... or because they've actively rejected the frames. Sometimes it's both... see the author of the essay I discussed in the last paragraph as an example, the goth/indus/noise music scene seems to be disproportionately LGBT.

Now, the avantgardes of the art music community and those of underground art culture as shown in the music subcultures I've mentioned do sometimes end up borrowing from each other, through artists who happen to be on both's wavelengths. The fact that they are willing to think outside of box because they value different things than mainstream culture means that they're more likely to come up with... as a result, those willing to "compromise" between the mainstream and both high culture/sub-culture might be responsible for keeping the mainstream culture evolving. Think of mainstream culture, high culture and underground culture as a 3-circle Venn Diagram in this regard.

This is why while the subcultural patriotism I referred to earlier is a mixed blessing. On one hand, the subcultures might end up dying completely or fall apart if everyone distrusts not just new members but also each other for not being "true". (I already mentioned the intersection with politics earlier in the thread, which is an interesting tangent to keep in mind but I'm not sure I can really do that justice right now) On the other hand, there also needs to be a hard core who maintain some distance because they keep the flame burning, offering different perspectives from every other cultural community. An example is that metal's golden age in the 1980s and early 1990s came, or punk's a bit earlier, about because the underground back then was exclusive enough to only let in those who "got it" but also good enough at rewarding interesting new music coming out within the framework of that culture.

As far as the question of how often countercultures in general, and those related to music in this regard, actually live up to their own declared ideals, goes... it is my conclusion those are rare occasions. This does not mean they aren't good ones to strive for. It's debatable how many progressive/psychedelic rock groups had that much of a coherent ideological/philosophical concept beyond "let's fly into space", with groups like Amon Düul II or Henry Cow or The Mothers of Invention (Zappa in general?) or Magma being the exceptions. Nor how many of them synthesized classical and jazz into rock music beyond more the use of outside technical flourishes in the context of rock songwriting, again it's something that I get the impression that Beefheart/Zappa/RIO-style avant-rock and Krautrock (or "Kosmische Musik") was better at integrating compositional structures into something genuinely new than the classic Anglo-prog. Indeed, beyond Beef and Zap the avant-prog stuff is not something I listen to very often, and even in their case there are large stretches of their discography I haven't gotten around to listening... often including their most celebrated output. Krautrock I now listen less to than newer electronic music inspired by the scene. This does not invalidate or mean good music can't come out of it without fulfilling those lofty goals, indeed said mythic ideals of the underground music might be more useful as abstract Platonic ideals to strive for with only the rarest few actually achieving them, but can still impact people's lives opening them up to new directions as well a second-hand inspiration towards not just more avant-garde and highbrow music forms, but also new artistic/literary inspirations and philosophical/religious/political ideas. I've also gotta admit that I at times admire the avant-garde of art more through its second- and third-hand influence on more accessible stuff. It's not that often I have enough brain capacity to process really "highbrow" stuff.

I know I did touch on the sociological/political aspects of underground music without exploring them further, something I might have should have done especially now that I brought up punk. At the end of the day, though, the fact that I don't find most underground music subcultures fulfilling their own proclaimed ideals very often means that it's a long time ago I've actively identified with them. Perhaps being that kind of active participant just requires even more time and commitment than I've been willing to expend, so the option of not dropping in on the "formative experiences" of an underground subculture is one option I might not really have had that much in a pre-internet age? I might explore them in a future post I'll make later this week, perhaps where I also summarize the conclusions I made here in this post. (and could provide more concrete specific examples) 

Think of this as first draft of my own conclusions. My next post might start with a summary of this one. I really should start a blog of my own one of these days.

One problem I see with all this is Progressive Rock doesn't have a subculture and it was never a counter-culture.

You could shrug this off with a "so what" or you could do what ***** does and invent one, but the bottom line remains that there isn't a subculture or collection of smaller subcultures that unifies all the people who are involved with Progressive Rock. There isn't even (nor has there ever been) as Scene associated with it. It has no fashion, no art, no literature and no theatre. It also has no cultural or social implications or impact. It exists solely as a loose genre of music with no clear definition or ideology. The Canterbury Scene wasn't a real scene and even Krautrock was a disparate unrelated un-associated bunch of bands that distributors lazily bundled into one single category to make them easier to sell. Whatever influences that fed into the genre occurred in isolation on a band by band basis with no two being alike, so when we say the avant-garde was an influence on Progressive Rock we cannot identify which avant-garde, or how that influence was felt, so make some vague arm-waving gesture in the general direction of avant-garde and hope to hell that no one asks us to be a little more specific. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 02:53
I haven't gotten around to debate the last many posts made by other people here than Dean, which I might get around to addressing too but I don't have time for that either for the next couple days.

I do suppose that a lot of the problems we have ran into in terms of discussing this article's theory here come from its assumption of underground music scenes as "cultural communities"... something that makes sense for a metal/industrial/neofolk webzine to use as a central premise, but not so much in a prog-rock context. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not a coincidence that the only prog/psych example the author uses is Henry Cow and their Rock In Opposition movement.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 04:48
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

(...)

I do suppose that a lot of the problems we have ran into in terms of discussing this article's theory here come from its assumption of underground music scenes as "cultural communities"... something that makes sense for a metal/industrial/neofolk webzine to use as a central premise, but not so much in a prog-rock context. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not a coincidence that the only prog/psych example the author uses is Henry Cow and their Rock In Opposition movement.
Is this Zappa's track an avantagarde music i.e. Art Music, or popular music i.e. a Rock music with "some influence of avant", but in your opinion? You shouldn't answer if you won't to do it by any reason.










Edited by Svetonio - April 15 2015 at 05:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 05:20
Nice job cutting Dean's name from the quote
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 05:28
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:13
*Note I have quoted Svetonio's post verbatim and in full to make it crystal clear exactly what I am commenting on so to prevent it looking like I have commented after he made any fatuous back-editing of said post. I have "commented out" the videos merely to blank them from the text.
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Is this Zappa's track an avantagarde music i.e. Art Music, or popular music i.e. a Rock music with "some influence of avant", but in your opinion? You shouldn't answer if you won't to do it by any reason.

[TU-BE]P5myH_QnasQ[/TU-BE]

[TU-BE]t0dO8EM1vCg[/TU-BE]
Zappa was a Rock Musician, a Jazz Musician and a Classical Musician. This is accepted fact that NO ONE is questioning. 

He made Rock albums, Jazz Fusion Albums and he made Classical albums (and crossovers thereof). No one is denying this. 

He composed contemporary Classical (Art) Music pieces alongside his Rock and improvised Jazz pieces, and (as Glass did with Bowie's Low and Heroes albums), he used themes and melodies from his rock albums to create contemporary Classical (Art) Music pieces.

'Bogus Pomp' is an example of his contemporary Classical (Art) Music - it is not Rock, it is not Popular Music and it is not Jazz. Bozzio's presence on the track, for example, is as a percussionist not as a Rock or Jazz drummer. As a piece of contemporary Classical (Art) Music it is (as the name suggests) it is a satirical piece that reflects Zappa's sense of humour and his perception of music establishmentTherein, the avant-garde element is not wholly irrelevant.  Zappa is echoing (copying?) Varèse in that he is using a freedom from composition strictures to construct a piece of music in a seemingly ad hoc manner and to juxtapose contrasting sounding instruments (again, like Varèse). Zappa's "seemingly ad hoc" compositional structure was actually a "collage" technique so the brief "rock" motifs that appear in the piece are referential in the same way that Ives and Copland reference popular pieces of music in their contemporary Classical (Art) Music. 

What 'Bogus Pomp' is not, is Progressive Rock. So any argument that this validates any claim that Prog Rock is Art Music is doomed to failure.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:17
Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Nice job cutting Dean's name from the quote
LOL He did it again to remove [/edit: that part of] Simon's quote entirely. LOL


Edited by Dean - April 15 2015 at 07:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:20
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Is this Zappa's track an avantagarde music i.e. Art Music, or popular music i.e. a Rock music with "some influence of avant"





If we focus on common ways we'll say what "everyone" says.
If we focus on the way music is offered to people, that is Zappa would say "Common kiddies gather round we're celebrating music together" we'll say Zappa is a popular artist, even if it delivers erudite music to the audience.
If we focus on the music, we'll say "erudite music" or "pure art music".

PS: I appreciate that you share music (I guess) you enjoy while, er... Sharing, in often risky ways, your uncompromised-looking views. Thanks to your efforts, I've discovered several amazing bands without any hard research.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Musique Savante ("Learned Music" or "Erudite Music") is probably as emotive as «Musique Sérieuse» ("Serious Music") and «Grande Musique» ("Great Music") - the names alone suggest it represents an elite club of music that people want their favourite music to be a member of. For them, non-membership would imply that Prog is not serious music or that it is uneducated music.

You're meaning that the french scholar who first pronounced the magic "musique savante" shouted "Ça c'est de la musique savante !" with a trembling voice and tears in his eyes. Meanwhile, the english scholar would say "this is...art music" without the least noticeable emotion (but he'd have to compensate in a pub / brothel afterwards, lest a colo-rectal cancer being diagnosed because of the contained emotional storm inside him).

If "savante" refers to intellectual curiosity and sense of structure + control, this word isn't a choice that mediocre..."Musique Sérieuse" or "Grande Musique" sound cheaper, because serious or great/grand doesn't equate to being knowledge-thirsty.

Now you may want to have french academicians cry at they lack of emotional control. 

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I never fret over a mix - If I can hear every instrument and it's placed in the soundstage where I want it then I'll leave it alone. At some point you have to say enough is enough and walk away or everything just gets muddier and muddier.

I guess the mud you're talking about is the adding of new layers, effects, so that the overall sound loses on quality. I've fallen in this trap though not very often. The most common chores I'm refering to are:

Finding better fitting samples for an instrument, esp the drums & bass
Cleansing lead/backing lines from unnecessary notes, improving them.
Using better EQ tools
Trimming a long piece, or adding bars to a short piece for a better structure.
Obtain a better dramatic tension into changing instrums

Enough is enough: true... Provided it's actually enough !!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:40
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Musique Savante ("Learned Music" or "Erudite Music") is probably as emotive as «Musique Sérieuse» ("Serious Music") and «Grande Musique» ("Great Music") - the names alone suggest it represents an elite club of music that people want their favourite music to be a member of. For them, non-membership would imply that Prog is not serious music or that it is uneducated music.

You're meaning that the french scholar who first pronounced the magic "musique savante" shouted "Ça c'est de la musique savante !" with a trembling voice and tears in his eyes. Meanwhile, the english scholar would say "this is...art music" without the least noticeable emotion (but he'd have to compensate in a pub / brothel afterwards, lest a colo-rectal cancer being diagnosed because of the contained emotional storm inside him).

If "savante" refers to intellectual curiosity and sense of structure + control, this word isn't a choice that mediocre..."Musique Sérieuse" or "Grande Musique" sound cheaper, because serious or great/grand doesn't equate to being knowledge-thirsty.

Now you may want to have french academicians cry at they lack of emotional control. 
Not really. I mean the words used can cause an emotional response in the non-academic lay-person, not the academic scholar who invented the terminologies.

It is the false-logic (fallacy of argument) that any music that is not called "Serious Music" must be non-serious; music that is not called "Erudite Music" is uneducated; and thus, any music that is not called "Art Music" cannot be art or artistic. Those are emotional responses, not musicological responses.

Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I never fret over a mix - If I can hear every instrument and it's placed in the soundstage where I want it then I'll leave it alone. At some point you have to say enough is enough and walk away or everything just gets muddier and muddier.

I guess the mud you're talking about is the adding of new layers, effects, so that the overall sound loses on quality. I've fallen in this trap though not very often. The most common chores I'm refering to are:

Finding better fitting samples for an instrument, esp the drums & bass
Cleansing lead/backing lines from unnecessary notes, improving them.
Using better EQ tools
Trimming a long piece, or adding bars to a short piece for a better structure.
Obtain a better dramatic tension into changing instrums

Enough is enough: true... Provided it's actually enough !!
If a piece of music needs that much effort I tend to move on to a new piece, rather than try and fix something that I find unsatisfactory.




Edited by Dean - April 15 2015 at 06:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:44
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Is this Zappa's track an avantagarde music i.e. Art Music, or popular music i.e. a Rock music with "some influence of avant"





If we focus on common ways we'll say what "everyone" says.
If we focus on the way music is offered to people, that is Zappa would say "Common kiddies gather round we're celebrating music together" we'll say Zappa is a popular artist, even if it delivers erudite music to the audience.
If we focus on the music, we'll say "erudite music" or "pure art music".

PS: I appreciate that you share music (I guess) you enjoy while, er... Sharing, in often risky ways, your uncompromised-looking views. Thanks to your efforts, I've discovered several amazing bands without any hard research.

Thank YOU! cheers! Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:02
"Avant-garde" can be a pretty useless word, IMHO. It has never been synonymous with "irritating music," 
or politically charged, as in transgressive.  Debussy and Satie, and many of the other greats of the
mainstay classical repetoire were avant garde -- I would define the true avant garde as the greats who were not fully appreciated in their lifetime, irregardless of the marginalization their music causes in the future.  This is a way to reclaim the word.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Forum posts are an informal conversation, this discussion is no different to two guys discussing something in a bar over a glass of beer.

Ha ha ! Are you kidding ? Let's have a conversation on the same topic recorded in a pub for further analysis... Ha ha ha !

Beer sounds good to me. 

My Dinner With Andre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:24
An example of some avant-garde I like, 

Pietro Grossi / Sergio Maltagliati 


all in that series so far I've heard/seen have been rewarding.




Edited by brainstormer - April 15 2015 at 10:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2015 at 11:21
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

An example of some avant-garde I like, 

Pietro Grossi / Sergio Maltagliati 


all in that series so far I've heard/seen have been rewarding.



I've just discovered your place ! There are some surprizing tracks...

http://www.regenerativemusic.net/External_Omni/07_R.S._Pearson_External_Omnipotent_Moments_First_Sounds.mp3
http://www.regenerativemusic.net/External_Omni/12_R.S._Pearson_External_Omnipotent_Moments_Procession.mp3
http://www.regenerativemusic.net/RS_Pearson_Live_KMLP_First_Concert/RS_Pearson_Live_KMLP_First_Concert.mp3
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