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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642
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Posted: May 21 2015 at 15:38 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Question for all the Yes experts......why were Banks and Kaye asked to leave? Personally I enjoyed both musicians in Yes. |
I believe Banks claims that Anderson and Squire asked him to leave because they preferred Howe... though other reports claim that Banks left of his own accord, since he apparently didn't like the idea of recording with an orchestra, and by that report - as well as some that support Banks' story - claim that Yes only found Howe after Banks left/was sacked.
Kaye was definitely asked to leave, since he wanted to only work with his Hammond and not Moogs and the like.
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12684
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Posted: May 21 2015 at 21:52 |
Lear'sFool wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Question for all the Yes experts......why were Banks and Kaye asked to leave? Personally I enjoyed both musicians in Yes. |
I believe Banks claims that Anderson and Squire asked him to leave because they preferred Howe... though other reports claim that Banks left of his own accord, since he apparently didn't like the idea of recording with an orchestra, and by that report - as well as some that support Banks' story - claim that Yes only found Howe after Banks left/was sacked.
Kaye was definitely asked to leave, since he wanted to only work with his Hammond and not Moogs and the like. | I don't think Banks was willing to go... perhaps he was convinced by the others (Squire I would guess) to do so, and for interviews and accounts I have read, I believe he remained spiteful at having to leave the band. I understand Squire/Anderson wanted to expand the sound of Yes... they wanted it to be more than what they could achieve with Banks... and Howe ended up being just what they were looking for. In the end, the thing with Kaye must have been the same... and they found what they were looking for in Wakeman. Actually, I remember seeing in a documentary that (Squire I think) said that Kaye re-joined Yes for 90125 because they met... well, somewhere (and they needed a keyboard player for their new album, I guess), the thing is, he said there was never really a reason for Kaye to have left the band, so they asked him back. However, nasty as the sacking of them both might seem (it does makes me feel a bit uncomfortable thinking about this practices from one of my very favourite bands... and they have kept on doing it up until the end), at least in this two cases it led to one of the very best line-ups on any rock band... one of those rare cases in which every member was at the very top of their instrument, and none was lesser than the others... and so they made two of the very best albums in rock, too.
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Wanorak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 09 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4574
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Posted: May 26 2015 at 19:28 |
Alan Reed from Pallas! Such a great voice. The new singer is much better on wearewhoweare. Still miss Reed though.
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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 01:49 |
Regarding the Tony Kaye 'only wanted to work with a Hammond' claim. Yes, they always referred to him as 'an organist', but he used equal amounts of Hammond, Minimoog and Mellotron on the One Live Badger album
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 42463
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 02:20 |
Not exactly prog, but I never understood why Geoff Downes all of a sudden got rid of John Payne and reformed the classic Asia line-up. I've read someplace that it was a bitter break-up, and it was hard for Payne especially. And after that a whole soap opera style story began with Payne creating Asia featuring John Payne and classic Asia are not allowed to play Payne era material.
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NutterAlert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 07 2005
Location: In transition
Status: Offline
Points: 2807
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 02:40 |
Jaxon was booted out of VdGG for collaborating with an unauthorised version of VdGG story. Survived as a trio with HB doing even more work! Worst by far of course is when Phil Collins, Tony Banks & the other one unceremoneously booted prog out of Genesis. A one time listenable prog group became MTV darlings, pop idols and screen stars. Show me the money. Shame. I still don't get how Genesis are so revered on this forum....
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 27280
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 02:48 |
Progosopher wrote:
richardh wrote:
Cozy Powell was dumped out of ELP when Palmer became free of his Asia commitments although the band then didn't get going again for some 4-5 years later. This was not the intention though (usual ego problems).Moraz was dumped out of Yes but then he had presumably brought Refugee to a close thus effectively ending the careers of Brian Davison and Lee Jackson. For that reason my sympathies are limited. I always preferred that Refugee album as well over Relayer although both are good. |
I have heard that Moraz felt bad about dumping Refugee for Yes, especially since his tenure was so short, but from a career perspective it was practically a no-brainer. Yes was a top group with hits and a big following at a time when Prog was still in the mainstream. |
In a way this is like a promising young footballer leaving a small club for a big club (ie big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond). Often not a good move in the long run.
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essexboyinwales
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 27 2015
Location: Bridgend
Status: Offline
Points: 4822
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 05:14 |
NutterAlert wrote:
Worst by far of course is when Phil Collins, Tony Banks & the other one unceremoneously booted prog out of Genesis. A one time listenable prog group became MTV darlings, pop idols and screen stars. Show me the money. Shame. I still don't get how Genesis are so revered on this forum.... |
Surely your first paragraph answers your final question...
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: May 27 2015 at 07:14 |
AZF wrote:
This is my kind of thread and I haven't got anyone I can mention apart from...
Flight123 wrote:
Wyatt's ejection from Soft Machine is a case in point. According to the latest biography, it still hurts him now - he always saw the Softs as 'his' band.
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Well I think Soft Machine has a lot more unceremonious Prog dismissals! I've still never heard it in full from Mike Ratledge's side, but going from being one of the founder members to just seemingly give up and let Karl Jenkins take over.
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It still bugs me the way that Soft Machine bit by bit froze Wyatt out, first limiting his vocals, then cutting out his vocals entirely (to the point where I swear his first solo album, The End of an Ear, must in part have been devised to show off the potential of the voice as instrument that Soft Machine were neglecting at that point), to finally shunting him out altogether. I consider it to be no surprise that the band's sense of humour disappeared at just about the same time as Wyatt was cut off from contributing compositionally, and I don't think they were ever the same after that.
In Ratledge's case, it seems to me that he held out as a band member purely out of inertia after a while - the last few years of his tenure in the band didn't exactly inspire much brilliance out of him, and I can't help but think he was going through the motions and giving Karl Jenkins the lead because he'd run out of ideas for the band himself. Given his involvement in Wyatt's ouster I'm inclined to see it as poetic justice that just as Mike became the sole founder member of the band, he discovered he couldn't find anything better to do with it than hand it over to Karl.
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Intruder
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 13 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2121
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Posted: May 29 2015 at 04:30 |
On the topic of Peter Banks, I think his sacking was totally the band's idea. Howe was that technically proficient guitarist that Anderson felt they needed to perfectly sculpt that unique Yessound. Banks' release haunted him for the rest of his life....he never got over it. All the Yessuccess and the band's treatment of him after he left wore on him......the incident where Howe wouldn't shake his hand, or when the band invited him onstage in the 80s but at the last minute Howe vetoed the idea. His every project post-Yes seemed an attempt to show the band that they'd made a mistake. His death was so sad for that reason. He seemed a defeated man despite the fact that he was a wonderful musician with a great sound. I love his Wes Montgomery style of the first album....it will always be my favorite Yes album.
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I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20015
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Posted: May 29 2015 at 07:05 |
Intruder wrote:
Banks' release haunted him for the rest of his life....he never got over it. |
Boy is that true. Read the liner notes he wrote for the Yes at the BBC CD - he was still mad about it many years later and obviously had a big grudge against Howe.
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
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Posted: May 30 2015 at 23:21 |
Fripp's pretty merciless--cutting out David Cross, and then Bruford and Wetton by declaring KC had "ceased to exist" in 1974.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7199
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Posted: May 31 2015 at 00:28 |
Terakonin wrote:
I was about to make a thread about this.Adrian Belew not being reinvited to King Crimson. He lobbied so hard to reform the band, and when Fripp finally did, he wasn't even involved. He contributed so much to their sound since 1980 that he was basically just as important as Fripp. If there was anyone other than Fripp I would be happy with leading the Crims, it would be Belew. |
I can certainly understand why Adrian was not happy about being sacked. However, the reformed King Crimson that I saw in concert on 26 September, 2014 was BRILLIANT with Jakko Jakszyk on guitar and vocals!!
I love Adrian and his contributions, but Fripp's newest iteration focuses upon the 1969-71 catalog, and Belew's vocals and chiming guitar style would not have fit this music as well as Jakko's. Seeing "Pictures of a City" performed live by a band featuring Mel Collins was remarkable!!
So many times, musicians we truly love get sacked (Banks from Yes being one), but truly innovative prog bands seem to figure a way forward. However, I don't think Yes is recovering from the sacking of Jon Anderson. I saw Yes tickets in Chicago for an upcoming concert this summer, and the most expensive tickets were $508 US!! This for Billy Sherwood on bass, John Davison on vocals, and Geoff Downes on keys? Nah.
Edited by cstack3 - May 31 2015 at 00:29
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
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Posted: May 31 2015 at 02:32 |
I do believe that certain members of certain bands get 'booted out' - not because of who they are, nor because of 'difference of direction'.........but mainly because of their limitations as musicians...... If certain composition becomes beyond my capabilities, then ta'ta, I no longer involve myself in such endeavours. Some folks are 'the right choice at the time' but certain demands are beyond certain folks' expertise. Not a big deal as such, but that's the way things tend to go.........
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: May 31 2015 at 20:38 |
Intruder wrote:
On the topic of Peter Banks......the incident where Howe wouldn't shake his hand |
If I made my living playing the guitar, I don't know that I'd be in a hurry to shake the hand of someone who held a grudge against me - I might not escape with all five fingers.
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20015
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Posted: June 01 2015 at 07:10 |
cstack3 wrote:
I saw Yes tickets in Chicago for an upcoming concert this summer, and the most expensive tickets were $508 US!!
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What? That's even more than Kate Bush. I think I paid about £25 to see them at Southend last year with Chris Squire.
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
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Posted: June 01 2015 at 12:36 |
emigre80 wrote:
Intruder wrote:
On the topic of Peter Banks......the incident where Howe wouldn't shake his hand |
If I made my living playing the guitar, I don't know that I'd be in a hurry to shake the hand of someone who held a grudge against me - I might not escape with all five fingers. |
You don't seem to understand the situation. Banks was fired for not getting behind the idea to record with classical musicians on Time And A Word, and fought often with producer Tony Colton, who Anderson had picked, over Banks' role. Anderson viewed him as a malcontent who couldn't be permitted to endure when the band's future was up in the air, and managed to convince Squire that getting someone new was the way to go. Howe wasn't their first choice (that was Robert Fripp, actually!), but he turned out to be the right one. Banks resented his treatment, and some bled over onto Howe, understandably, but not until Banks was barred from participating in the Union tour gig in Los Angeles by Howe's people did this story about not shaking hands originate (which Howe doesn't do for injury protection and is not limited to Banks). It isn't absolutely certain that Howe personally so directed.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7199
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Posted: June 01 2015 at 16:44 |
chopper wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
I saw Yes tickets in Chicago for an upcoming concert this summer, and the most expensive tickets were $508 US!!
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What? That's even more than Kate Bush. I think I paid about £25 to see them at Southend last year with Chris Squire. |
I kid you not. That is at the "Northerly Island" outdoor concert venue, near downtown Chicago. $508 was front-row.
I think the less expensive tickets clocked in about $150 to $200 US.
I paid $134.44 each for two tickets to the King Crimson concert, 26 September 2014, and witnessed one of the best concerts I'd ever seen (going back to LTIA Crimson). I see no need to fling money at the aging posers of Not-Yes.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20587
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Posted: June 01 2015 at 16:53 |
cstack3 wrote:
Terakonin wrote:
I was about to make a thread about this.Adrian Belew not being reinvited to King Crimson. He lobbied so hard to reform the band, and when Fripp finally did, he wasn't even involved. He contributed so much to their sound since 1980 that he was basically just as important as Fripp. If there was anyone other than Fripp I would be happy with leading the Crims, it would be Belew. |
I can certainly understand why Adrian was not happy about being sacked. However, the reformed King Crimson that I saw in concert on 26 September, 2014 was BRILLIANT with Jakko Jakszyk on guitar and vocals!!
I love Adrian and his contributions, but Fripp's newest iteration focuses upon the 1969-71 catalog, and Belew's vocals and chiming guitar style would not have fit this music as well as Jakko's. Seeing "Pictures of a City" performed live by a band featuring Mel Collins was remarkable!!
So many times, musicians we truly love get sacked (Banks from Yes being one), but truly innovative prog bands seem to figure a way forward. However, I don't think Yes is recovering from the sacking of Jon Anderson. I saw Yes tickets in Chicago for an upcoming concert this summer, and the most expensive tickets were $508 US!! This for Billy Sherwood on bass, John Davison on vocals, and Geoff Downes on keys? Nah.
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Edited by SteveG - June 01 2015 at 16:55
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: June 01 2015 at 18:20 |
Bitterblogger wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
Intruder wrote:
On the topic of Peter Banks......the incident where Howe wouldn't shake his hand |
If I made my living playing the guitar, I don't know that I'd be in a hurry to shake the hand of someone who held a grudge against me - I might not escape with all five fingers. |
You don't seem to understand the situation. Banks was fired for not getting behind the idea to record with classical musicians on Time And A Word, and fought often with producer Tony Colton, who Anderson had picked, over Banks' role. Anderson viewed him as a malcontent who couldn't be permitted to endure when the band's future was up in the air, and managed to convince Squire that getting someone new was the way to go. Howe wasn't their first choice (that was Robert Fripp, actually!), but he turned out to be the right one. Banks resented his treatment, and some bled over onto Howe, understandably, but not until Banks was barred from participating in the Union tour gig in Los Angeles by Howe's people did this story about not shaking hands originate (which Howe doesn't do for injury protection and is not limited to Banks). It isn't absolutely certain that Howe personally so directed. |
I certainly don't understand the situation, and I have no idea what happened (don't much care either) - I was just making a general observation that shaking hands with someone who is pissed off (for whatever reason) isn't a great idea when your hands are your livelihood.
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