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TheLionOfPrague 
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 Topic: Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
Posted: October 28 2015 at 23:56 |
I'd say they did art-rock, not prog. They, Moody Blues and Procol Harum were the early pioneers, but weren't fully "prog" bands. Procol Harum maybe invented prog in a way, I think they were the first band to make a song that took an entire side of an album among other things.
They made songs that were (from Rubber Soul/Revolver on-wards) innovative, complex, original, experimental and were pretty different from the standard rock other bands at the time were doing like The Who, Rolling Stones, etc. They layed the foundations but never went full prog. It would have been interesting to see what they had done in the 70's had they not separated.
But I don't see prog in The Piper at the Gates of Dawn that was mention above. Psychedelia yes, but not prog.
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Wicket
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Posted: July 12 2015 at 16:36 |
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(As my first foray into this always heated topic, I'm just going to lay out my 2 cents)
I'm not going to go out there and say that the Beatles "invented" prog, but they did help bring it to the masses, along with bands like Pink Floyd, and the Moody Blues, among other, in the form of psychedelic rock.
But as all music goes, nothing is ever truly "invented", but rather created from inspiration or creativity from sounds or music by previous artists or bands.
Hell, all that studio wizardry the Beatles were notorious for? You can thank a German composer named Karlheinz Stockhausen, notorious for dabbling in electronic music and tape splicing and manipulation. Songs like "A Day In The Life" and "Revolution 9" were inspired by composers who experimented with electronic manipulation like Stockhausen, Luciano Berio, Edgard Varese. And you can repeat the same tracing of progress back to the very beginnings of music back to the age of the Romans and Greeks!
(Don't believe me on the Stockhausen thing? His face is on the Sgt. Pepper album cover [use Wikipedia to find him])
In terms of breaking the mold and introducing new ways of making music, yes, the Beatles where incredibly influential in doing so, but they didn't 'invent' any genre of music at all, let alone prog.
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WeepingElf
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Posted: July 12 2015 at 15:15 |
I would say that Atom Heart Mother was the point where Pink Floyd transited from psychedelic to prog, and the transition was pretty much completed with Meddle. Of course, their space & psych background continued to shine through later from time to time, as did their blues roots (you still can find some blues in "Shine On You Crazy Diamond"). Ummagumma was a bundle of a psychedelic live album and a record containing experimental pieces of the individual members.
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Svetonio
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Posted: July 12 2015 at 12:34 |
 SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
history nerd wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland  |
You should have heard them before they dumped the bagpipe player. Now, that was Prog! |
Poor Edinbourgh's proggies......
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Disparate Times
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Posted: July 12 2015 at 11:50 |
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There has always been experimentation in music and all bands were inspired by someone, would the Beatles biggest influence then be up for the creators of prog, or perhaps they're influences. Maybe prog wasn't invented but rather discovered.
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SteveG
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Posted: July 12 2015 at 11:37 |
Svetonio wrote:
history nerd wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland |
You should have heard them before they dumped the bagpipe player. Now, that was Prog!
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
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Points: 776
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Posted: July 11 2015 at 16:42 |
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album? |
Meddle is
their first serious move to 'progressive psychedelia', though 'progressive psychedelia' is just a description for more experimental psych; it was related to prog-rock indeed, but it still to be Psychedelic rock.
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I think PF were doing psychedelic, space and experimental rock until their attempt in symphonic prog (Atom Heart Mother Suite, 1970). Later they were sticking with space rock but more controlled and polished.
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Svetonio
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Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 23:31 |
history nerd wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 17:42 |
^Ok, regardless if they were good or bad, big or small, or prog or not, Fripp is on record quoting them as key influence. There's not much more to it than that. Now is a good time for me to get off this cloud.
Edited by SteveG - July 10 2015 at 17:45
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history nerd
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Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
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Points: 26
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 17:01 |
SteveG wrote:
^Not all my friend. And far be it for me to throw stones (I'm lying through my teeth), you were fine. It's just that some people really, really like the Clouds. It's a little strange to me, but I try to be easy on them. |
I like the Clouds well enough... But I didn't know they had a rabid following. In any case there are plenty of examples of bands that could conceivably be labeled prog around at that time, I'd have a hard time saying if Clouds are the best of that lot or not.
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-hn
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:57 |
^Not all my friend. And far be it for me to throw stones (I'm lying through my teeth), you were fine. It's just that some people really, really like the Clouds. It's a little strange to me, but I try to be easy on them.
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history nerd
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Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
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Points: 26
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:50 |
SteveG wrote:
^I believe that's what I said. Just a little bit nicer.  |
I think what you said and what I said aren't exactly the same.... Besides I make a point of trying to get back to people who respond to me.
Did I come across as a jerk?  I certainly didn't mean to... I tend to be direct/pointed but I have nothing but good feelings for everyone here. 
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-hn
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:42 |
^I believe that's what I said. Just a little bit nicer.
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history nerd
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Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:39 |
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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-hn
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SteveG
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Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:25 |
^You're not alone. Doc.
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dr wu23
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Location: Indiana
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:21 |
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Hmmm...I think I have a copy of Watercolor Days somewhere on cd.....I need to pull it out and listen. I can't recall being all that impressed with them.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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LearsFool
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Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:21 |
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Oh, definitely. And again, on who Crimson took their 'tron cues from, either way they didn't want to sound like the predecessor, they just couldn't see a way to do it without launching off from whichever predecessor.
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SteveG
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Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:02 |
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
It's about time someone got around to mentioning the Clouds, this thread was getting stale. I'm afraid that their 1968 debut album (The Clouds Scrapbook) was almost the stuff of legend, and literally sold a few hundred copies, so it's difficult to hang a lot of historical basis on the band and their influence, as opposed to the Beatles' world selling albums. If Fripp wasn't so prickly, he could have easily named the better known the Nice as his influence and history would have been made. He didn't and it wasn't. So, where are we with all this information at this junction? With most multiple accounts of history the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The Beatles were probably not the most well known influence on KC and the Clouds were probably higher up on the influence scale than they are given credit for. In the end, it's all part of the thick foggy stew, and there's no smoking gun. But it was fun.
Oh, and being that Pinder was a mellotron salesman, the Moodies and Beatles were in a dead heat on the race to the mellotron. It depended on what group Fripp listened to last before spouting his influences on that particular day, I should think.
Edited by SteveG - July 10 2015 at 14:36
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odinalcatraz
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Location: London
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:57 |
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
I read it as he wanted to emulate the composition abilities, as in instantly likeable with a lot of content deep within and would never date. I know exactly how Sgt Pepper sounded because I was young enough to wonder what the hell it was supposed to be when it was released. Then it became likeable and eventually, the best thing I'd ever heard. Kind of prog you might say. Had the same feeling about Court when that appeared too.
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http://www.corvusstone.com
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LearsFool
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:47 |
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it.
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Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
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