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emigre80 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
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Points: 2223
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 Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:20 |
You wouldn't. I'm convinced.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:24 |
 SteveG wrote:
^I think that a Day In The Life is pretty prog but not symphonic. Even if it did feature the famous orchestra crescendos. Weird, huh?  |
I would call ADitL more "crossover" than Mr Kite and SFF.
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8633
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:28 |
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind.
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history nerd
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
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Points: 26
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:35 |
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
All the bands at the time were experimenting. Everyone was wondering what new sounds and ideas they could add to rock and roll. Prog was born out of this exploration and when it was it formed slowly from a little bit of this that and the other that was floating around. It did not spring fully formed from the head of Zeus (or Fripp), no instead it was created by many different people in many different places and at the time no one could have known that it was Prog. It was just Rock with a little something extra.
I therefore don't see why it would be of any importance to try and trace the specific elements of KC's sound to specific bands. No doubt they were influenced by many, many things both consciously and subconsciously. In fact many of the bands that influenced them may have never even been recorded and thus we will never know what impact they might have had. But it doesn't matter. What matters is that their music exists, that it is unique, and that there were many others like them producing many similar things, and others who followed after influenced by these bands.
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-hn
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8633
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:39 |
history nerd wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
All the bands at the time were experimenting. Everyone was wondering what new sounds and ideas they could add to rock and roll. Prog was born out of this exploration and when it was it formed slowly from a little bit of this that and the other that was floating around. It did not spring fully formed from the head of Zeus (or Fripp), no instead it was created by many different people in many different places and at the time no one could have known that it was Prog. It was just Rock with a little something extra.
I therefore don't see why it would be of any importance to try and trace the specific elements of KC's sound to specific bands. No doubt they were influenced by many, many things both consciously and subconsciously. In fact many of the bands that influenced them may have never even been recorded and thus we will never know what impact they might have had. But it doesn't matter. What matters is that their music exists, that it is unique, and that there were many others like them producing many similar things, and others who followed after influenced by these bands. |
I only note this for truth. It's a known fact that Clouds influenced Crimson, and a known fact that their use of 'tron built off of Pinder's use of it - in that case not so much because they wanted to, but because it was workable. And when you've got posters acting as if the Beatles were Zeus, what I said only reveals the primordial soup's whole.
Edited by LearsFool - July 10 2015 at 12:39
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odinalcatraz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 12 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 347
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:42 |
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here: Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that.
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http://www.corvusstone.com
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8633
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:47 |
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it.
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odinalcatraz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 12 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 347
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 12:57 |
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
I read it as he wanted to emulate the composition abilities, as in instantly likeable with a lot of content deep within and would never date. I know exactly how Sgt Pepper sounded because I was young enough to wonder what the hell it was supposed to be when it was released. Then it became likeable and eventually, the best thing I'd ever heard. Kind of prog you might say. Had the same feeling about Court when that appeared too.
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http://www.corvusstone.com
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20507
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:02 |
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
It's about time someone got around to mentioning the Clouds, this thread was getting stale. I'm afraid that their 1968 debut album (The Clouds Scrapbook) was almost the stuff of legend, and literally sold a few hundred copies, so it's difficult to hang a lot of historical basis on the band and their influence, as opposed to the Beatles' world selling albums. If Fripp wasn't so prickly, he could have easily named the better known the Nice as his influence and history would have been made. He didn't and it wasn't. So, where are we with all this information at this junction? With most multiple accounts of history the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The Beatles were probably not the most well known influence on KC and the Clouds were probably higher up on the influence scale than they are given credit for. In the end, it's all part of the thick foggy stew, and there's no smoking gun. But it was fun.
Oh, and being that Pinder was a mellotron salesman, the Moodies and Beatles were in a dead heat on the race to the mellotron. It depended on what group Fripp listened to last before spouting his influences on that particular day, I should think.
Edited by SteveG - July 10 2015 at 14:36
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8633
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:21 |
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Oh, definitely. And again, on who Crimson took their 'tron cues from, either way they didn't want to sound like the predecessor, they just couldn't see a way to do it without launching off from whichever predecessor.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20485
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:21 |
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Hmmm...I think I have a copy of Watercolor Days somewhere on cd.....I need to pull it out and listen. I can't recall being all that impressed with them.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20507
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 14:25 |
^You're not alone. Doc. 
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history nerd
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 26
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:39 |
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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-hn
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20507
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:42 |
^I believe that's what I said. Just a little bit nicer.
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history nerd
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 26
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:50 |
SteveG wrote:
^I believe that's what I said. Just a little bit nicer. |
I think what you said and what I said aren't exactly the same.... Besides I make a point of trying to get back to people who respond to me.
Did I come across as a jerk?  I certainly didn't mean to... I tend to be direct/pointed but I have nothing but good feelings for everyone here. 
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-hn
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20507
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 16:57 |
^Not all my friend. And far be it for me to throw stones (I'm lying through my teeth), you were fine. It's just that some people really, really like the Clouds. It's a little strange to me, but I try to be easy on them.
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history nerd
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 17 2015
Location: USA
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 17:01 |
SteveG wrote:
^Not all my friend. And far be it for me to throw stones (I'm lying through my teeth), you were fine. It's just that some people really, really like the Clouds. It's a little strange to me, but I try to be easy on them. |
I like the Clouds well enough... But I didn't know they had a rabid following. In any case there are plenty of examples of bands that could conceivably be labeled prog around at that time, I'd have a hard time saying if Clouds are the best of that lot or not.
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-hn
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20507
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 17:42 |
^Ok, regardless if they were good or bad, big or small, or prog or not, Fripp is on record quoting them as key influence. There's not much more to it than that. Now is a good time for me to get off this cloud.
Edited by SteveG - July 10 2015 at 17:45
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: July 10 2015 at 23:31 |
history nerd wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
odinalcatraz wrote:
LearsFool wrote:
I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard.
Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind. |
As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity
for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could
stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better
than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig
the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the
twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as
many levels as that. |
And that's the evidence of Fripp wanting to do studio magic like the Fab Four, like I said. But - and this is surprising to me at times - that ended up the extent of it. |
Well of course the influence of the Beatles is going to be overstated. My god, they are perhaps the biggest Rock and Roll band in history! But I think we should be careful not to tip the pendulum to far in the other direction either.
From a functional perspective it makes sense that people will name check the Beatles because everyone will instantly be familiar with them and even specific tracks that can be pointed to. And if people want to go back and listen to "Proto-Prog" (I hate this site's terms) the Beatles will be the obvious starting point. Clouds on the other hand are amazingly obscure and a fun to name drop in a place like this, but hardly a cultural touchstone even for PA posters.
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Clouds even aren't on the PA list of prog bands, they are in prog-related section, i.e. not prog. Probably 'cause they went from Scottland 
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 776
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Posted: July 11 2015 at 16:42 |
Svetonio wrote:
Pastmaster wrote:
I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album? |
Meddle is
their first serious move to 'progressive psychedelia', though 'progressive psychedelia' is just a description for more experimental psych; it was related to prog-rock indeed, but it still to be Psychedelic rock.
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I think PF were doing psychedelic, space and experimental rock until their attempt in symphonic prog (Atom Heart Mother Suite, 1970). Later they were sticking with space rock but more controlled and polished.
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Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
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