Has prog lost its way?

Disparate Times wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Hmmm.....7 pages later and I'm still trying to determine what 'way' was lost...or what it even means to say prog has a 'way'. If prog doesn't have a way could we say that the remones were classic prog and nickelback is modern prog?

ok kill me now please!  arghhhhh!!!!! Seriously?  

^ and exactly what is happening NOW

What a thread. Wow. Eric Hobsbawn gets a mention and now I'm getting into The Galactic Cowboy Orchestra and liking what I've heard of Jack O’ The Clock. Yea team. Listening right now on You Tube and JO'TC has been followed by Nick Magnus seemingly doing a Peter Gabriel impersonation. Maybe the case for the Prosecution is complete or at best confused.

An Old Fart's Perspective .... no doubt rambling and probably a bit dodgey on the time line.

Once upon a time it was simply Underground. That was a catchall for all and everything that didn't get played on the wireless. Proto prog ? I don't know but I do know that I bought my first Springsteen, my first John Cale and my first Genesis on the same day without considering whether or not they were from different genres. Earlier than that I remember joining one of those record clubs that existed back in ye olden thymes where you got five albums first up and then one album a month. My five were, oh lord I forget exactly which albums, The Who, Jimmy Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Donovan and Cream. Had the term existed I probably would have thought of Cream and Hendrix as Prog I guess. Hell, back then Roxy Music would have been part of it. Who today would claim RM as Prog ? All I know is that the first few bars of Strange Brew changed my life forever and the preacher had a moustache.

So we've got Foxtrot and Time and a Word, probably a bit of Moody Blues and Procol Harem, The Nice maybe and probably COtCK, not to forget InAGaddaDaVida. That's all very well and good and we anxiously wait for the next great release. Selling England makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and the sheer unbounded joy of Close TtE may never be repeated but that's the the shock of the new when you realise that the new and you are dancing cheek to cheek down the same golden pathway. Life's great moments.

Of course then comes the day when Genesis do the Lamb and Yes get all Oceanic on us. Whoa, hang on why are we not hearing SE or CTtE Pts II ? Oh no, this is no good at all. Lets all have a collective sulk while the youngsters, oh when did we grow old,  are bopping to The Sex Pistols. Fools, have you no taste ? Can you not see how great was the old ? Ah, the shock of the new but now alas no love affair, for the new hath no place for banks of synths, nor indeed the synths of Banks nor men dressed in red frocks. Dynosaurs R Us.

Yet amazingly enough the damn stuff keeps selling. Just when we thought it was dead and the glory days of Art Rock had passed us by the stadiums are packed to the rafters and the big names, the really big names are our heroes, even women are listening to it. Jaysus, We can't have that can we ? But we did and wasn't it nice. Not as exclusive and we still dribbled in our beer as we yearned for if not the resurrection then at least the return of the voice to  .... oh you know who I mean. Then of course the arch villian Collins releases Face Value and becomes a bloody pop star and well thats that then.

The word I'm afraid is rut and we were probably in it. Some time around then someone dragged me along to a Clash gig, simply awesome, not Prog but then there was The Cure with Seventeen Seconds and Joy Division doing the progiest non prog that I've ever heard while every man and his dog could now go out and get a stage load of electronics and holy crap the Pet Shop Boys are synth heaven ... in a light hearted frothy gay way.

Prog didn't lose its way. It never really had a way to lose. On the one hand part of it morphed into electro pop, part into new wave, part into metal and other into some glorious well played, well composed avant garde rock which is all very well and good but only the very few can dance to it , only a very special woman wants to hear it and  ...... oh look there's a Genesis cover band playing down the road.

Still and all ... Í've found not only Franco Battiato but also The North Sea Radio Orchestra, Jack etc, Anglagard, The Future Kings, The Galactic Cowboy Orchestra and IAmTheMorning to name but a few. Lost Highway it may be but I'm sure we'll make it through.



Edited by t d wombat - July 25 2015 at 14:47

WeepingElf wrote: Prog may be considered having "lost its way" in that the progressive countercultural vision that shines through most prominently in classic-era Yes seems to have been lost to many prog artists.  Sure, there still is a lot of excellent prog now, but I feel that there is something missing.  In the early 70s, prog was (to some part at least) an expression of a vision of a freer, spiritually richer, more equitable society of the future, and that vision has been lost in the mid-70s.

So many times i'v been reading here that moaning that "vision" was lost in mid-70s. Truth is - that "vision" WASNT lost in mid-70s. A plenty of great albums were released in the middle & second half of 70s. You forgot the albums like "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering" by Genesis, "Songs From The Wood", "Heavy Horses" and "Stormwatch" by Jethro Tull, "L" and "Green" by Steve Hillage, "Going for the One" by Yes, "Fish Out Of Water" by Chris Squire, "Olias of Sunhillow" by Jon Anderson, "Joe's Garage Act. I" by Frank Zappa, "L" and "Green" by Steve Hillage, "Shamal" by Gong, "Aja" by Steely Dan, to name a few.

Edited by Komandant Shamal - July 23 2015 at 21:36

Wicket wrote: I still find it entertaining that there are some people who still don't realize that the "sound" of 70's prog isn't necessarily what the definition of "prog" is. I still think there are some people who don't even know the difference between "prog" and "progressive". The term "progressive" itself is self explanatory, symbolizing progression, evolution, development, something that can't continue forever, whereas I usually equate the term "prog" to 70's era bands. This may or may not be the case with anyone else, but that's how I see it. There's also the continuing trend that bands are following where the music they create is a blend of many different musical styles that lines between genres are blurring. In fact, because of that, the exact definition of "progressive" probably doesn't even fit the description of these "newer" bands that are making music these days, so if you're a 70's prog fanboy, yes, prog has lost its "way" if by "way", you are referring to the signature sound that was created in those songs. I understand the need to clarify what genres are being echoed in which songs, as it's just our nature to clarify and to organize, to describe the indescribable. I have bands in my iTunes library that are organized in genres that may not be completely accurate, but they're classified as that genre because I search by genre and I know I'll be able to find them there when I want to listen to them. Then at that point I just say to myself "Screw it, I don't care what the hell you call it, it's just damn good music, and that's all that matters."

Pretty much agree with you there though Can't ?  I'd have thought the whole idea of progressive was that it could continue developing ad infinitum.

Then again what is the sound of the 70s Prog wise ? Other than the choice of instruments and song structure that goes beyond the basic sound of blues and country based rock'n'roll is there much to compare say King Crimson to the Moody Blues ?

I'm also in the "screw it etc" camp. I don't really care if the Neo bands hark back to a vision of the 70s as long as it is fresh and interesting. Sadly an awful lot of it isn't but the same can be said of any musical genre. There is always a lot of swill to wade through before one finds the odd pearl. I listen to a lot of country and there the traditionalists (Dale Watson is a good example) sit quite comfortably alongside the more progressive artists such as Wilco.

[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M][QUOTE=Son.of.Tiresias]

t d wombat wrote: Wicket wrote: I still find it entertaining that there are some people who still don't realize that the "sound" of 70's prog isn't necessarily what the definition of "prog" is. I still think there are some people who don't even know the difference between "prog" and "progressive". The term "progressive" itself is self explanatory, symbolizing progression, evolution, development, something that can't continue forever, whereas I usually equate the term "prog" to 70's era bands. This may or may not be the case with anyone else, but that's how I see it. There's also the continuing trend that bands are following where the music they create is a blend of many different musical styles that lines between genres are blurring. In fact, because of that, the exact definition of "progressive" probably doesn't even fit the description of these "newer" bands that are making music these days, so if you're a 70's prog fanboy, yes, prog has lost its "way" if by "way", you are referring to the signature sound that was created in those songs. I understand the need to clarify what genres are being echoed in which songs, as it's just our nature to clarify and to organize, to describe the indescribable. I have bands in my iTunes library that are organized in genres that may not be completely accurate, but they're classified as that genre because I search by genre and I know I'll be able to find them there when I want to listen to them. Then at that point I just say to myself "Screw it, I don't care what the hell you call it, it's just damn good music, and that's all that matters." Pretty much agree with you there though Can't ?  I'd have thought the whole idea of progressive was that it could continue developing ad infinitum. Then again what is the sound of the 70s Prog wise ? Other than the choice of instruments and song structure that goes beyond the basic sound of blues and country based rock'n'roll is there much to compare say King Crimson to the Moody Blues ? I'm also in the "screw it etc" camp. I don't really care if the Neo bands hark back to a vision of the 70s as long as it is fresh and interesting. Sadly an awful lot of it isn't but the same can be said of any musical genre. There is always a lot of swill to wade through before one finds the odd pearl. I listen to a lot of country and there the traditionalists (Dale Watson is a good example) sit quite comfortably alongside the more progressive artists such as Wilco.

Technically the idea of progressive is that it is supposed to continue ad infinitum, I agree, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I feel that progressive rock is going to hit that wall much like contemporary music did with John Cage's 4'33 (if silence is now considered music, where do we go from here?).

I appreciate that we share similar thoughts in regards to just listening to music and not bother about the "style" or "way" or "genre" of it, but I do have this sort of doomsday scenario feeling about myself where progressive music is really just going to hit a wall somewhere and there will be no room to advance stylistically, creatively, melodically or technologically. Thankfully, constant advances in technology will continue to provide new outlets of expression and exploration, but I still worry that it will all eventually come to an end.

Then again, I've been paranoid about everything all my life, so it could just be much ado about nothing.

Kati wrote: Disparate Times wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Hmmm.....7 pages later and I'm still trying to determine what 'way' was lost...or what it even means to say prog has a 'way'. If prog doesn't have a way could we say that the remones were classic prog and nickelback is modern prog? ok kill me now please!  arghhhhh!!!!! Seriously?   Sorry Disparate Times, I am sure you are a nice person but

Obviously I'm not suggesting the Ramones nor nickelback should be included in the archives. I just think it's absurd to say that prog has no way. Without a definition is it even a thing? I understand that the classics didn't think of themselves as being prog, but in retrospect what they did ultimately created what we now know to be prog. I think a lot of modern bands now know that they are prog bands, and this is causing them to follow the path that has been created, that isn't progression. I think that following a leader is something that wasn't included in classic prog but sadly has been adopted in order to appease a specific audience. Some accept this by concluding it's still better than everything else out there.

This idea that we have experienced all the experimentation that music has to offer is crazy too. Music is endless, you may not like where it has gone or even where it is going but that doesn't mean it's dead. I think what we're seeing is a lack of visionaries in music today. I don't dislike all new music and I'm certainly not ready to accept music today can't compare to the classics, I just haven't heard it yet.

Komandant Shamal wrote: WeepingElf wrote: Prog may be considered having "lost its way" in that the progressive countercultural vision that shines through most prominently in classic-era Yes seems to have been lost to many prog artists.  Sure, there still is a lot of excellent prog now, but I feel that there is something missing.  In the early 70s, prog was (to some part at least) an expression of a vision of a freer, spiritually richer, more equitable society of the future, and that vision has been lost in the mid-70s. So many times i'v been reading here that moaning that "vision" was lost in mid-70s. Truth is - that "vision" WASNT lost in mid-70s. A plenty of great albums were released in the middle & second half of 70s. You forgot the albums like "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering" by Genesis, "Songs From The Wood", "Heavy Horses" and "Stormwatch" by Jethro Tull, "L" and "Green" by Steve Hillage, "Going for the One" by Yes, "Fish Out Of Water" by Chris Squire, "Olias of Sunhillow" by Jon Anderson, "Joe's Garage Act. I" by Frank Zappa, "L" and "Green" by Steve Hillage, "Shamal" by Gong, "Aja" by Steely Dan, to name a few.

OK, make it the late 70s then.  And certainly, there has been a lot of good and even great prog after that - but I see little that has the visionary power of the classic Yes, and the great masterpieces of the classic era have few equals in modern prog.  Instead, we see albums about such negative subjects as serial killers (IQ The Road of Bones) or people falling dead in their apartments without their neighbours noticing (Steven Wilson Hand.Cannot.Erase, which is typical of much of current prog that is depressing like winter fog).  Granted, it is easier these days to come up with pessimistic subject matters than with optimistic ones (but was the world really so much better in the 70s when many prog bands managed to come up with edifying visionary albums?), but I still think that the current crisis can be overcome and a better world be built, if we all pull together.

This is the same problem as with science fiction, where optimistic stories have recently been few and far between.  Most modern SF stories are about civilization collapsing, either from current problems such as climate change or terrorism gettng out of hand, or (more often) from threats that have nothing even to do with current problems, such as alien invasions, asteroid strikes or the currently so fashionable zombie plagues.  But I am digressing.