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Topic ClosedSyd Barrett: Real Genius or Real Hype?
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TODDLER View Drop Down
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 08:14
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.


Well....he's over hyped because of Rock journalists, record companies..."Harvest" EMI and Pink Floyd themselves who decided to write songs about him which overly appealed to "Pot head" audiences, and overall through the publications industry. That is not Syd Barrett's fault, request, or doing.....Syd Barrett created an original style of music that was influential to artists of the future. That is a true fact..otherwise see if you can disprove it. I can't....but all this other garbage you make reference to is in the hands of jerks who often overrate an artist. Syd Barrett had nothing to do with that. Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead are extremely overrated. Many people are. That doesn't mean they weren't innovators. I don't like Dylan or the Dead and personally don't see how they would be considered great musicians or writers, but I am still graceful enough to understand how they influenced other people. I may not like them....but have respect for their originality and the foundation they laid for musicians who didn't have creative minds to do it on their own..
If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.
 
The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true  musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.


He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are"  I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 08:20
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

An interesting article:

http://johnpeelarchive.com/joe-boyd


-


AMM were a group born of philosophy rather than the performance of music, the idea of searching for sound, in a leaderless environment, attempting to create a new type of music altogether. Unlike traditional free improvisation, which created sound and reflected upon itself, AMM sought to continue way past those boundaries.

"This is a very, very obscure record, but kind of legendary" says Joe, "one of the formative things in the creation of what we now think of as Pink Floyd, the long extended solos, the abstract ventures into space with the guitar, it all comes from here". He continues, "Peter Jenner gave this to Syd Barrett and he loved this record, and that took him, combined with his own acid trips, it took him off into space", leading Barrett from quirky little songs like "Arnold Layne" and "Bike" to the drawn out insanity that made them so influential.

(...)






This is truly interesting. I'd like to purchase this if it's on cd....on another note...Art Zoyd, Univers Zero, Magma, and several other Rio and Prog bands are influenced by experimental 20th century Avant-Garde to form their own Chamber Rock or additives in Prog pieces. In a sense everyone is influenced by something on this earth. That's not the point at all. It's what they take from it to create something new and fresh with it. That's the point with Syd Barrett. 
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:05
Early on with Floyd he was good.  His solo albums that I have (two) are painful to listen to...
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Points: 1281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:49
I like them, but, yeah, to be honest, when I listen to The Madcap Laughs, I replaced "Dark Globe" and "She Took A Long Cold Look" with their alternate takes and an edited version of "If It's In You" without the false starts. Speaking of "If It's In You", is there a cover version out the where it's played as an extend jazz instrumental a la John Coltrane or The Dave Brubeck Quartet?

Edited by KingCrInuYasha - August 23 2015 at 14:54
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Points: 41 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 14:55
genius
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 15:54
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Early on with Floyd he was good.  His solo albums that I have (two) are painful to listen to...


I agree. He didn't have an abundance of coordination that's for sure...and he had a slight stutter. Some of the songs had great potential and could have been re-worked for later Floyd albums. He was never a great musician as he was a writer. "Astronomy Domine" , "Lucifer Sam", "Bike", and "See Emily Play" were based on ideas that no one else had ever thought of.  "Black Cat's something I can't explain" is a line of words surrounded by a chilling sustaining organ sound from Rick Wright and the way Syd Barrett sings the song is so unique that I can't imagine anyone else producing a distinctive vocal style running close to it. What I like about Piper is that the band had The Beatles in the next room recording Sgt Pepper and surprisingly they had a complete style of their own. There was the slightness of The Beatles and I believe Syd Barrett was a John Lennon fan, but the album stands on it's own for that period.
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 19:08
Yesterday I had the desire to listen to Hunky Dory by David Bowie. Rick Wakeman plays beautiful timeless sounding piano and the whole album has a strange flow to it. I'm reading the booklet and suddenly realize there are no credits to Mick Ronson who did all the arrangements on the album. One of his most beautiful arrangements is for "Life On Mars" where the personal aspect of strings is breathtaking like a great Beatles or Brian Wilson song. On the back of the jewel case is the original cover for the LP. There Mick Ronson's name can be seen ...but in a strange insignificant fashion. Why wasn't his name mentioned in the booklet as arranger? 


Regarding Syd Barrett...his name is all over the map. "Syd did this and Syd did that" "Syd created Punk" "Syd captured the first time essence of childhood literature within "Rock Music". These are all true facts for a guy who only did one album. His style of writing seemed to first influence David Bowie and later T.REX. I have Dave Brock on an interview tape..where he is asked .."How did you come to form Hawkwind?" Brock replies: "Well...one day I heard this guy running a slide up and down the neck of the guitar and I thought..if Pink Floyd can do it, so can I"  So in point you might gather that his opinion of Syd Barrett's playing was "not all that up to par." But still??? There is a crap load of Syd in Hawkwind's music. Lol! You have to listen closely and observe. Daevid Allen was VERY influenced by Syd Barrett...OMG!...."Pothead Pixies"...'I am, you are, we are crazy!" is a definite Syd Barrett style vocal line over top of a weird beat/accents. Amon Duul II and GONG contained theatrics and if you minus the Jazz and focus on the "Space Rock" aspects , it's pretty clear to see that Syd Barrett influenced both bands very highly and because he was an innovator....NOT...a skilled musician...no..not at all.  The reason why he is all over the map and constantly overrated is because Pink Floyd gained international fame with their Dark Side Of The Moon album...Lol!!  I wouldn't call him a genius and not every innovator is a genius anyway ..so that within itself is rather overrated. But I would gather that his invention of childlike oriented songs ..combined with Rock is very baffling. That sort of perfect , almost untouchable level is a special creation in time and only comes along every so often in life. He did it with one album and to some people ..they find him questionable based on the "one album" reality. Some intelligent people might ponder: "Well...the guy did one album...so...how can all these things being said about him be true?" Nevertheless...many creations in "Space Rock" can be attributed to "Piper" , so maybe that's all we needed ..was one album. One album to get everybody started on a new path within the European underground Progressive Rock scene of the early 70's.  


Edited by TODDLER - August 23 2015 at 19:14
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 20:15
He was "off balance" physically regarding his inability to play an even measure ...AND.....only on specific songs. Jerry Shirley struggles with "Baby Lemonade" and his drum rolls sound like a person falling down steps. Robert Wyatt may have followed him a little better or just felt the changes with a natural groove. In the beginning ..Syd Barrett wrote uneven measures such as "Bike" where the characteristic of the song was fitting...and actually very witty. Later on  during his solo period, these uneven measures seemed to escalate into the worst "hair pulling" recording sessions for the musicians who were there to assist him. To a degree...much of what he WAS producing with his natural felt, but bizarre sounding uneven measures had first derived from Robert Johnson , where the unpredictability existed of Johnson..(not only playing uneven measures), but changing the chord in a 4 bar Blues whenever he felt like it...making it virtually impossible for any musician to follow him.


A musician could commonly predict when the singer was about to switch to the next chord..by realizing how many sentences in the song were sang just prior to switching. However..throughout time..musicians weren't always able to predict the actual "beat" of the switch and they would get thrown off. Syd Barrett played his songs in this style ...but more with a British sound and occasionally a Blues song or two...like "Masie". Much of his solo material truly lacks in the area of having tightness. Some songs sound like "Garage Band" mentality ...especially some of the backing for "Gigolo Aunt". "Dominoes" redone by David Gilmour sheds light on Syd Barrett's talent. It's only about 4 chords, but it makes a great Pink Floyd song. "Astronomy Domine" on Pink Floyd's "Pulse" album is magnificent! David Gilmour had a deep sensibility toward Barrett's music and understood it's potential..obviously. His versions of Barrett songs in the modern day are revealing and telling. 


All the personal interest in his mysterious insanity is quite overblown...and to the point where people have to look up Iggy Rose , posting her face on the internet, looking her up after she's vanished for decades, and going the distance to investigate Barrett's relationship with her and as Syd would say..."They can play anything they'd like"...Any game..is what you mean? Paparazzi's were hounding him for decades and it was ridiculous for sure. If Pink Floyd had broken up after MEDDLE..this probably wouldn't have occurred. But then Syd Barrett may have never received a load of royalty checks ..life sure has a sick sense of humor. 


Edited by TODDLER - August 23 2015 at 20:20
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Points: 12608 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 21:43
Yeah, I also love the way Gilmour has played some of Syd's songs. I hope he has a new one for the new tour.
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Points: 1281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2015 at 22:15
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Yesterday I had the desire to listen to Hunky Dory by David Bowie. Rick Wakeman plays beautiful timeless sounding piano and the whole album has a strange flow to it. I'm reading the booklet and suddenly realize there are no credits to Mick Ronson who did all the arrangements on the album. One of his most beautiful arrangements is for "Life On Mars" where the personal aspect of strings is breathtaking like a great Beatles or Brian Wilson song. On the back of the jewel case is the original cover for the LP. There Mick Ronson's name can be seen ...but in a strange insignificant fashion. Why wasn't his name mentioned in the booklet as arranger? 

...

Which version of Hunky Dory are you referring to? I have the 1999 Vrigin/EMI master in my hands and it mentions Ronson as an arranger and which tracks he did. 

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Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

He was "off balance" physically regarding his inability to play an even measure ...AND.....only on specific songs. Jerry Shirley struggles with "Baby Lemonade" and his drum rolls sound like a person falling down steps. Robert Wyatt may have followed him a little better or just felt the changes with a natural groove. In the beginning ..Syd Barrett wrote uneven measures such as "Bike" where the characteristic of the song was fitting...and actually very witty. Later on  during his solo period, these uneven measures seemed to escalate into the worst "hair pulling" recording sessions for the musicians who were there to assist him. To a degree...much of what he WAS producing with his natural felt, but bizarre sounding uneven measures had first derived from Robert Johnson , where the unpredictability existed of Johnson..(not only playing uneven measures), but changing the chord in a 4 bar Blues whenever he felt like it...making it virtually impossible for any musician to follow him.

...

Funny thing, I'm listening to "Jugband Blues" which could be the quintessential example of what you said. The first 13 seconds are, if I got my music timing right, 3/4, 0:14 - 0:21 are in 2/4 and then goes into I dunno what with the "Old shoes" section before going back to 3/4, then the middle part and freak out section are in 4/4, then ending in a slower 3/4. All in under three minutes, and he somehow manages to make it work. I never heard anything like that at the time.
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Points: 20503 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 10:03
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.


Well....he's over hyped because of Rock journalists, record companies..."Harvest" EMI and Pink Floyd themselves who decided to write songs about him which overly appealed to "Pot head" audiences, and overall through the publications industry. That is not Syd Barrett's fault, request, or doing.....Syd Barrett created an original style of music that was influential to artists of the future. That is a true fact..otherwise see if you can disprove it. I can't....but all this other garbage you make reference to is in the hands of jerks who often overrate an artist. Syd Barrett had nothing to do with that. Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead are extremely overrated. Many people are. That doesn't mean they weren't innovators. I don't like Dylan or the Dead and personally don't see how they would be considered great musicians or writers, but I am still graceful enough to understand how they influenced other people. I may not like them....but have respect for their originality and the foundation they laid for musicians who didn't have creative minds to do it on their own..
If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.
 
The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true  musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.


He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are"  I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!
This type of explanation only works if one agrees that that "those songs are as good as they are." Look who's doing the talking, Roger Waters, the key purveyor of Syd's mythical status. What was he supposed to say after mythicizing Barrett in not only song but with an entire album?  Give me a break, Barrett was a second rate hack and PF was the better for his withdrawal from the group, regardless of the circumstances. What would the group have developed had Barrett never left them? An album called "The Dark Side Of the Gnome?"

Edited by SteveG - August 24 2015 at 10:45
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 12:57
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I've never seen an artist more over appreciated than this one. More hype than hero, I'm afraid.


Well....he's over hyped because of Rock journalists, record companies..."Harvest" EMI and Pink Floyd themselves who decided to write songs about him which overly appealed to "Pot head" audiences, and overall through the publications industry. That is not Syd Barrett's fault, request, or doing.....Syd Barrett created an original style of music that was influential to artists of the future. That is a true fact..otherwise see if you can disprove it. I can't....but all this other garbage you make reference to is in the hands of jerks who often overrate an artist. Syd Barrett had nothing to do with that. Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead are extremely overrated. Many people are. That doesn't mean they weren't innovators. I don't like Dylan or the Dead and personally don't see how they would be considered great musicians or writers, but I am still graceful enough to understand how they influenced other people. I may not like them....but have respect for their originality and the foundation they laid for musicians who didn't have creative minds to do it on their own..
If it makes you feel better Todd, Dylan and the Dead are overrated too.
 
The inclusion of Barrett along with, or the view that he's superior to, true  musical geniuses like Brian Wilson or Lennon & McCartney is an insult to these true music visionaries.


He wasn't superior to Wilson and Lennon & McCartney and it wouldn't be fair to say that considering he only did one album, but he did influence many artists over decades nevertheless and maybe if we could change the course of time by taking Piper away or completely out of history...many interesting groups would have in fact not existed . As Roger Waters sits in a chair during an interview and says: "There's got to be a reason why those songs are as good as they are"  I'm just wondering as he's saying that if he realizes how lousy some of his songs were on The Wall, W.Y.W.H., Animals and if there is any doubt in his mind as to why or how those songs from Piper could be good, he should take a look around and smell his own garbage or perhaps listen to the Prog bands that sold out in the late 70's and 80's like YES, Genesis, the lame Jethro Tull albums.....I mean...it's a very long list...and Syd's Piper is light years ahead of contrived garbage like that.Lol!
This type of explanation only works if one agrees that that "those songs are as good as they are." Look who's doing the talking, Roger Waters, the key purveyor of Syd's mythical status. What was he supposed to say after mythicizing Barrett in not only song but with an entire album?  Give me a break, Barrett was a second rate hack and PF was the better for his withdrawal from the group, regardless of the circumstances. What would the group have developed had Barrett never left them? An album called "The Dark Side Of the Gnome?"
 
I have to admit...that is very funny. "Dark Side Of The Gnome" I busted out.....  Well Steve...I agree that Pink Floyd were much better off without him. I have a place in my heart for those early Floyd albums beginning with More and ending with Obscured By Clouds. It's sad to think that Barrett couldn't have contributed to those albums with songs like "Dominoes", "Golden Hair" , and "Wolf Pack"....where members of Floyd would have developed those songs dimensionally to be actual Pink Floyd songs. They are actually very unique songs presented like bare bones on the Barrett albums. It would have been really cool to hear Pink Floyd do them in the studio. I think of the band as brothers and Syd Barrett as one of those brothers. He was the main writer for the original Pink Floyd and the band observed him from a learning standpoint. On a personal note...you may dislike his music and possibly it does nothing for you. He lacked in the area of being skilled guitarist...I can tell you that?? Lol! I guess it was his writing in '67 and his overall presence that set the Floyd on fire. Have you ever watched Nick Mason on Syd Barrett vid on Y.T.? Nick Mason nails the definition of Barrett's songwriting style and uniqueness.
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 14:59
I think Syd was touched by something very special. Other worldly almost. He created things of beauty but also things that should gave had people fearing the worst at the time of recording. I love David Gilmour for looking after Syds interedts but i find his blues rock axe hero wailing soul destroying.
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Points: 20468 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 15:41
Syd was indeed touched by something special...LSD. Wink

As to Gilmore's blues axe....imho Waters was the one who took control of Floyd and turned it into a personal platform  for his views on alienation of the  self and political and societal angst.
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Points: 20503 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 15:48
Originally posted by Guy_Debord_68 Guy_Debord_68 wrote:

I think Syd was touched by something very special. Other worldly almost. He created things of beauty but also things that should gave had people fearing the worst at the time of recording. I love David Gilmour for looking after Syds interedts but i find his blues rock axe hero wailing soul destroying.
Gilmour blues rock axe is soul destroying? Perhaps you were touched by the same substance that touched Syd. 
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 16:06
Possibly. I used to nick my mums Mandies when i was a kid. Opening guitar riffs to Interstellar Overdrive or interminable bendy note sustain axe w**kery? I know what i'd go for every time..
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Points: 20503 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2015 at 16:18

Floyd Council and Pink Anderson must be spinning in their graves~



Edited by SteveG - August 24 2015 at 16:20
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2015 at 06:36
[QUOTE=dr wu23]Syd was indeed touched by something special...LSD. Wink

We can thank Dr. Timothy Leary for that. Dr. Timothy Leary who said that LSD was good for everyone. 
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Points: 20503 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2015 at 14:06
^Yes, it's all Timothy Leary's fault. He put a gun to Syd's head and made him take 300 LSD trips against his will.
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Points: 20468 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2015 at 17:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, it's all Timothy Leary's fault. He put a gun to Syd's head and made him take 300 LSD trips against his will.

Actually we should be blaming Albert Hoffman who actually discovered it accidentally while looking for a different drug response entirely. 

Wink




Edited by dr wu23 - August 25 2015 at 17:08
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