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mogol 
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 26 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 42
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 Topic: Progressive Ears forum
Posted: September 25 2015 at 06:29 |
 Raff wrote:
As the person responsible for the "eclectic" definition, such outbursts tend to get a bit under my skin.
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On the one hand, it seems you are taking it personally, while it's the site that's been criticized. On the other hand ... do you consider Eclectic to be a real genre?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19627
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Posted: September 25 2015 at 03:29 |
Raff wrote:
OK, well... but stating that PA's "artificial subgenres" have a corrupting influence on younger, would-be prog fans - as someone recently wrote on PE in the thread dedicated to PA - seems just a tad far-fetched, if you ask me. As the person responsible for the "eclectic" definition, such outbursts tend to get a bit under my skin. And now that I've come out as the culprit of that awful crime , you can come and bash me - only, if you don't mind, do it here, and not behind my back.
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OK, I think we don't need to come to that kind of extreme, Raff .... but it might be a good idea tio close the two subjects (both here and on PE) before they degenerate. I thought it was a good idea to keep them open as I hoped for a better understanding and maybe building a two-way friendship, but the more negative elements of both sites keep chiming in with their bad vibes and might ruin whatever positive that could've come out out of these two threads The last thing I want is too return to the cold war situation of a few years back.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 18:11 |
SteveG wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, this a forum where people can express opinions, up to a certain point. There are many extremely knowledgeable members on this site and opinions that don't hold water are easy to shake out. Having so many knowledgeable people in one place is also extremely enjoyable to me, as I pick up something new at least a good portion of the time. All members can't be experts in genres like krautrock or RIO/Avant, so opinions from people who are is welcome, at least to me.
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It is the opinion of P.A. members that I am expressing opinion instead of fact. It is a fact that a majority of P.A. members disagree with the truth because they think it's an opinion and not a fact. |
My statement was not meant to be exclusive, Todd. I said that PA was a place that people can express opinions. I never said opinions were exclusive to PA discussions. I good friend of mine was electrocuted on stage before the advent of the safer wireless age. He survived. My saying that wireless is a good thing is more fact than opinion. Do you agree?
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Yes I agree with that. I don't agree with many opinions on this site. An opinion as such that would express for example that the King Crimson album RED is better musically than their first 4 albums. I wouldn't think of it as better if I did like it. If I disliked the first 4 K.C. albums, I would still have respect for what went into them. I could say for example that I prefer the style on RED more so than the early albums, but I wouldn't arrive to some bogus offensive conclusion that they hadn't reached their peak until RED based on my personal liking for RED. That is mainly how people take their opinion and attach aspects to it in order to defend it or prove that it is better than anyone else's or attempt to make it seem as a fact. |
Opinions still have to based on some mitigating conclusion in order for them to be persuasive. I feel that the Roger Waters solo album Amused To Death is subpar to any of his Floyd albums as ATD lacks a cathartic or climatic ending as opposed to albums like the Wall. It offers no solutions, it only states the problems. Some would see that as heresy, but what else can one do? Just say that the album is not to my liking and offer no reason?
I suppose it's easier for me to view other people's opinions as subjective, and harder for some others. If someone can't take them with a grain of salt, it could be quite irritating. |
You can offer your opinion that you like the Waters album better than the Floyd material. You can also state that you personally feel the Floyd albums are weaker, but not in such a way that you are stating a fact..because that is not honest for everyone. People won't care if you feel that the Floyd albums are weaker because that is your preference or taste, but to say..."They are weak" when in reality they are not is opinion not fact. If you say...."They are weak and in a sense where it sounds as if you are trying to say they are weak for everyone or that they are just plainly weak is wrongful and not logically correct in the musical academic sense. It might very well be a fact that musically academically they are more technical or more of a challenge to play or cover with a unit. And so regarding fact, that might put the definition of weak 6 foot under, when realistically it is only your opinion. I dislike the later Mahavishnu Orchestra material to a degree when I compare it to Inner Mounting Flame and Birds Of Fire, but guess what? Try assembling a band to cover the material on Apocalypse and Emerald Beyond and see for yourself how wrong it would be for me to say that the composition is weaker, lack-luster, just because it doesn't contain the same energy level and interplay between instruments as Birds Of Fire would. So....to say that I dislike the later material because it is weak, is technically incorrect. And technically correct is the fact based aspect in this case. "I don't like Apocalypse and Emerald Beyond because the composition is weak" That is not realistically true. Why not just say..."I don't prefer the style as much?"
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 12:38 |
OK, well... but stating that PA's "artificial subgenres" have a corrupting influence on younger, would-be prog fans - as someone recently wrote on PE in the thread dedicated to PA - seems just a tad far-fetched, if you ask me. As the person responsible for the "eclectic" definition, such outbursts tend to get a bit under my skin. And now that I've come out as the culprit of that awful crime , you can come and bash me - only, if you don't mind, do it here, and not behind my back.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19627
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 12:05 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20219
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 11:32 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Again it's subjective just like how we define prog itself..... I like the format here better and the fact that there are all kinds of different topics and not just music oriented. IMO many of the threads there are simply uninteresting. |
And they are all interesting here? |
Of course not....I can think of many here that are simply silly ,but as I said it's subjective. ...perhaps you missed that Ian...? |
No, I was just surprised you called out PE specifically for that issue, I'd say both sites are about 75% uninteresting. 
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20506
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 11:30 |
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, this a forum where people can express opinions, up to a certain point. There are many extremely knowledgeable members on this site and opinions that don't hold water are easy to shake out. Having so many knowledgeable people in one place is also extremely enjoyable to me, as I pick up something new at least a good portion of the time. All members can't be experts in genres like krautrock or RIO/Avant, so opinions from people who are is welcome, at least to me.
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It is the opinion of P.A. members that I am expressing opinion instead of fact. It is a fact that a majority of P.A. members disagree with the truth because they think it's an opinion and not a fact. |
My statement was not meant to be exclusive, Todd. I said that PA was a place that people can express opinions. I never said opinions were exclusive to PA discussions. I good friend of mine was electrocuted on stage before the advent of the safer wireless age. He survived. My saying that wireless is a good thing is more fact than opinion. Do you agree?
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Yes I agree with that. I don't agree with many opinions on this site. An opinion as such that would express for example that the King Crimson album RED is better musically than their first 4 albums. I wouldn't think of it as better if I did like it. If I disliked the first 4 K.C. albums, I would still have respect for what went into them. I could say for example that I prefer the style on RED more so than the early albums, but I wouldn't arrive to some bogus offensive conclusion that they hadn't reached their peak until RED based on my personal liking for RED. That is mainly how people take their opinion and attach aspects to it in order to defend it or prove that it is better than anyone else's or attempt to make it seem as a fact. |
Opinions still have to based on some mitigating conclusion in order for them to be persuasive. I feel that the Roger Waters solo album Amused To Death is subpar to any of his Floyd albums as ATD lacks a cathartic or climatic ending as opposed to albums like the Wall. It offers no solutions, it only states the problems. Some would see that as heresy, but what else can one do? Just say that the album is not to my liking and offer no reason?
I suppose it's easier for me to view other people's opinions as subjective, and harder for some others. If someone can't take them with a grain of salt, it could be quite irritating.
Edited by SteveG - September 24 2015 at 16:16
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 10:55 |
oh, you just don't know how weird 
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20478
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 08:50 |
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Again it's subjective just like how we define prog itself..... I like the format here better and the fact that there are all kinds of different topics and not just music oriented. IMO many of the threads there are simply uninteresting. |
And they are all interesting here? |
Of course not....I can think of many here that are simply silly ,but as I said it's subjective. ...perhaps you missed that Ian...?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19627
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 03:10 |
darksinger wrote:
I am one of the "retrograde pro-gun republicans" for the record... |
I wasn't specifically thinking of you, Jen... I don't consider you retrograd  .... but a  damn weirdo, that's for sure I mean, you'd probably end up on an inquisition pyre (along with me and most of others here and PE) set up by that PE army dude and CavGator & Co.
Atavachron wrote:
How is *easier to read with less forums* better? Prog
fans love complicated nonsense, that's why they listen to prog.
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Actually, they've got a (good) point... to many corner to check out the threads and the responses where you posted... This was complicated in the 1.0 version of the PA forum, but M@X further complicated it, by augmenting the lounges and sub-lounges a few years later..; Over there (PE), you've got three places/lounges (max 4) to check out for new threads...And all the non-music stuff is in one other mounge The PA forums and lounges are just as complicated than those genres and subgenres we got here...
Edited by Sean Trane - September 24 2015 at 03:14
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64383
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 01:11 |
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How is *easier to read with less forums* better? Prog fans love complicated nonsense, that's why they listen to prog.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 24 2015 at 00:39 |
dr prog wrote:
Dean wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Bye then, don't let the door hit you on the arse as you leave. |
This place needs people like me. Maybe you leave instead  |
It's a tempting offer, but not from you.
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What?
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dr prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2448
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 22:11 |
Dean wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Bye then, don't let the door hit you on the arse as you leave. |
This place needs people like me. Maybe you leave instead
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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20219
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 21:53 |
dr wu23 wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Again it's subjective just like how we define prog itself..... I like the format here better and the fact that there are all kinds of different topics and not just music oriented. IMO many of the threads there are simply uninteresting. |
And they are all interesting here?
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 21:20 |
SteveG wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, this a forum where people can express opinions, up to a certain point. There are many extremely knowledgeable members on this site and opinions that don't hold water are easy to shake out. Having so many knowledgeable people in one place is also extremely enjoyable to me, as I pick up something new at least a good portion of the time. All members can't be experts in genres like krautrock or RIO/Avant, so opinions from people who are is welcome, at least to me.
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It is the opinion of P.A. members that I am expressing opinion instead of fact. It is a fact that a majority of P.A. members disagree with the truth because they think it's an opinion and not a fact. |
My statement was not meant to be exclusive, Todd. I said that PA was a place that people can express opinions. I never said opinions were exclusive to PA discussions. I good friend of mine was electrocuted on stage before the advent of the safer wireless age. He survived. My saying that wireless is a good thing is more fact than opinion. Do you agree?
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Yes I agree with that. I don't agree with many opinions on this site. An opinion as such that would express for example that the King Crimson album RED is better musically than their first 4 albums. I wouldn't think of it as better if I did like it. If I disliked the first 4 K.C. albums, I would still have respect for what went into them. I could say for example that I prefer the style on RED more so than the early albums, but I wouldn't arrive to some bogus offensive conclusion that they hadn't reached their peak until RED based on my personal liking for RED. That is mainly how people take their opinion and attach aspects to it in order to defend it or prove that it is better than anyone else's or attempt to make it seem as a fact.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 15057
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 20:33 |
I like how the forums are separated here. PE does have a few different headers: the main section, the OT section, a general non-prog music/arts forum, and more areas for promotions, announcements, and musicians. Variety is the spice of life, right?
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20478
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 19:54 |
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Again it's subjective just like how we define prog itself..... I like the format here better and the fact that there are all kinds of different topics and not just music oriented. IMO many of the threads there are simply uninteresting.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20506
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 15:22 |
TODDLER wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, this a forum where people can express opinions, up to a certain point. There are many extremely knowledgeable members on this site and opinions that don't hold water are easy to shake out. Having so many knowledgeable people in one place is also extremely enjoyable to me, as I pick up something new at least a good portion of the time. All members can't be experts in genres like krautrock or RIO/Avant, so opinions from people who are is welcome, at least to me.
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It is the opinion of P.A. members that I am expressing opinion instead of fact. It is a fact that a majority of P.A. members disagree with the truth because they think it's an opinion and not a fact. |
My statement was not meant to be exclusive, Todd. I said that PA was a place that people can express opinions. I never said opinions were exclusive to PA discussions. I good friend of mine was electrocuted on stage before the advent of the safer wireless age. He survived. My saying that wireless is a good thing is more fact than opinion. Do you agree?
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 14:31 |
Sean Trane wrote:
infandous wrote:
To be honest, I've had far less problems with people on PE than I have on this board over the years. Though, because of all the horror stories about PE I heard over the years, I only joined there back in 2011 or so. I got on the forums here back in 2005, when things were quite wilder than they are now. However, people like Sean Trane, Mickey, Dean and a few others made it worthwhile to stay.
As to cliques......well, I spend most of the past 5 or 6 years over on the Flower Kings Appreciation thread here at PA. Which was basically a handful of people posting regularly with the occasional drive by. So that seems pretty cliquish to me. I'd say both boards have that "issue" (I don't see it as a problem personally, and we at the TFK thread were always welcoming and nice to newcomers, so we never tried to exclude anyone).
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Hey, I can't even begin to imagine how these people still burn statues of me on the TFK thread and probazbly threw a few fatwahs at me... I did one appearance quite a few years ago , just to let them know I knew (and didn't give a hoot)
TODDLER wrote:
P.E is such a two way street that you have one extreme of people who
you'd visualize meeting at a redneck bar in Jersey or a Ted Nugent
concert to the other extreme of people who are the most fascinating
people on earth to discuss music with....and....that's nature's way of
saying F-you and all of your prayers for high expectations. Lol! Some
people may have a personal dislike for a specific band and they are
brutal....yet they are deeply offended if you are negative about someone
you feel is overrated. Let's stop being children and come to a truce
regarding the understanding of respect. |
Yeah, there are a couple retrograd pro-guns republicans (but strong religious beliefs , no doubts ), but it's OK, because the political and religious subjects are mostly avoided, so it's not like there is a whole lot of place for them or their opponents (such as yours truly) to express those "sujets qui fachent"
And yes, Rutherford is a very average hguitarist, and not that much better a bassist
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I am one of the "retrograde pro-gun republicans" for the record...
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: September 23 2015 at 14:29 |
Dean wrote:
dr prog wrote:
A lot easier to read and post at PE. They don't have 700 forums lol |
Bye then, don't let the door hit you on the arse as you leave. |
hence...
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