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Warthur 
Prog Reviewer
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 Topic: Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
Posted: December 28 2015 at 20:30 |
This is not a thread about whether vinyl or CD is the better medium in the abstract - let's face it, that discussion's been had over and over again since the 1980s and it's one of those subjects where everyone has more or less already decided what they think.
Instead, I'd like to talk about particular prog albums where in your estimation the vinyl release is better than the CD release, or the CD release is better than the vinyl release - or where both versions are good, but in different ways. In an ideal world, both the vinyl and CD versions of an album would be painstakingly prepared for the mediums in question and be of comparable quality, but I think we all know that only very lucky albums end up getting treated with that level of respect.
Sometimes the CD release of an album originally released on vinyl was a half-assed rush job (particularly in the early days of CDs), and sometimes the vinyl issue of an album is likewise put out as an afterthought, or runs into technical limitations of the medium. (For instance, whilst you could push up to 25 minutes or beyond on a vinyl side, I understand that in practice when artists do that there's usually a sacrifice in sound quality as a result.)
And even when the CD and vinyl versions of an album are both as best as they can be made, they can still differ interestingly - particularly if people have gone to the effort of making different CD and vinyl mixes to account for the different properties of the mediums.
So, what albums do you know which you prefer in CD to vinyl, or vinyl to CD, where you've had access to both? I have to nominate Tangerine Dream's Zeit as a piece I much prefer to listen to on CD, because nothing disrupts a supposedly ambient, minimalistic listening experience like having to change sides every so often. Likewise, I really want to track down good-quality vinyl versions of Soft Machine's Volume One and Two albums, because whilst the CD version I have combining the two is a nice compilation, it is a fairly early CD release and I do wonder whether the vinyl versions come across better.
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octopus-4
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 07:23 |
As for 3D movies, CD albums are better when they have been conceived for CD.
AAD has no sense, if not for saving space at home.
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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Sztermel
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 09:09 |
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Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality.
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Meltdowner
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 09:14 |
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I have plenty of electronic music on CD, for the same reason you mentioned, but for most music I listen, I prefer vinyl. Curiously, I have Atom Heart Mother on CD and vinyl and I like both, they have really good quality and the mixes are quite different: there are some things I like more on one and others I like more on the other.
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moshkito
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 10:06 |
Hi, When I look back to almost 50 years, I'm glad that the LP's are gone. In many ways, they were very nice ... as it helped bring music to the public ... in some other ways, they were HORRIBLE ... because that also meant that some folks could do it, and some could not, and even Tom Dowd's special mentions this in his small discussion of black music in America after the WW2. Those who had it, got it ... that is the movie studios ... and those who didn't ... don't get nothing and they can not sell or show up in radio or tv ...for another 20 some years. I do not know how to discuss this in terms of Europe, and won't. This is strictly about the American side of things at this point. One other detail is important ... we know that music varies in length, and one of the worst things in the LP era, was that it forced music to be trimmed, or brought up to a certain length that we ended up thinking is the standard. THERE IS NO "STANDARD" FOR LENGTH IN MUSIC! AND THERE SHOULDN'T BE! And this was the LP's biggest downfalls. In many cases, even classical music was trimmed to fit the LP's ... magically, all the symphonies and Concerto's of classical music, all fit a LP just right. All operas were the LP's long, except Tosca (2) and Wagner (mandatory 4), which of course hurt its sales in America ... not to mention performance ... way too long and no one can sit through something lasting well into 3 hours! At that point, music appreciation changes ... you become concerned with your butt, and not the work itself, and you are ready to leave before it finishes! Or, just like many of the progressive music fans in this board, they love to say that the musical passages are just filler, and not necessary! The CD age, has busted this, and hopefully in the next 10 years, it will send the music business back to its origins ... it's about the music, not the length, and pop music standards do not apply to ANY OTHER MUSIC OUT THERE! Myself, I simply do not wish to see "progressive" or "prog" associated with the standards and crap that is pop/rock music!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 10:07 |
Hi, And it even makes me cry ... do you realize how many LP's had the long piece of music "banded' that were issued to radio stations in America? YES, was probably the biggest recipient of that insulting program ... btw! There is not a single LP I would rather have than a CD ... except for a few covers ... love the foldout in Space Ritual, or the fold out in Be Good to Yourself At least Once a Day ... and the beautiful art that Hipgnosis and others created, but otherwise ... I'm glad to see the LP gone.
Edited by moshkito - December 29 2015 at 10:14
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 11:27 |
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. The length of an LP side is finite, of course...but so is a CD at 74 minutes total, changed from the original CD format of 60 minutes because Sony wanted to press some Beethoven concert as 74 minutes, so they made the CD bigger. You can go to 80 minutes but have to change the pitch of the songs to make them fit which goes outside the parameters of redbook, which risks the chance that your CD player will not read the disc.
To me what the CD has done is allowed artists to include a bunch of extra/bonus/filler songs to fill up the disc. Some of it good, some bad and some just down right not needed, alternate tracks of the original or these special acoustic or non lyric versions.....filler essentially, allowing them to ask for more money..(King Crimson Road To Red 20 some odd CDs)...just saying....Love KC.
Regarding classical music, to me it should only be on CD or hi-rez digital files, because of all the quiet passages....Although life and live concerts have distortion, noise, coughing, sneezing, farting, snoring...... 
The Soft Machine albums I have are better on vinyl. Never cared for the CD versions Porcupine Tree In Absentia on CD is damn good, a tad better than the vinyl version, barely though. Most all Marillion is better sounding on vinyl, Season's End on CD is pretty good and give it the nod...but the others are not even close. Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version.
I have more I am sure, and remember I am only talking about redbook CD compared to vinyl.
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moshkito
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 11:52 |
 Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. ... |
I just don't think that they will become the standard for anything ... like "tape" ... it died after a certain amount of time, and no one uses it anymore ... and pretty soon all we need is someone saying that they are recording on the 4 track tape because the chicken tastes better. By that time, "digital", and CD, will be far better and the limitations that were there before will likely be a lot less problematic. By the time you listen to Tom Dowd's special you'll realize what I said ... I don't mean that 20 is mandatory and that things have to be 30. Or 50 and not 34. In other words, I want the music to be music, and I will never tell Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman that those 6 and a half minutes were "filler' ... on a piece of music. It's a fine line ... now you are suggesting that a longer piece of music has "filler", or that a band with less talent, only added more "songs', because they still had 14 minutes of space left on the CD. That is not what I was on about, and that is nothing but a pop/rock situation, and has very little to do with "serious" music, if I can borrow a Frank Zappa word or two. You don't go around, showing us how much of Shakespeare's "As You Like It" is with "filler", that makes it be a play that is 27 minutes too long! That is my only point ... and it bothers me, that you create a nice piece of music, and someone comes up to you, and says ... you have to cut it ... and make 2 different pieces of music, because it is too many minutes for this or that reason! On that day, you will probably be so disappointed with the whole music business ... you'll cry before you figure out to do with your child ... cut it in half!!!! No way!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:13 |
^ I think we maybe saying the same thing.....I 100% agree it is about the music and not the length or the format. I think it may happen all the time that an artist is told to cut the time down, or actually they themselves cut it down some, we as fans have zero control over that. We buy what is issued and play it.....
I think the CD allowed an artist, possibly made them feel the need, to come up with more music to add to the 74 minute CD format. So what if their music was only 45 minutes long, they were happy with that felt it was complete, the label tells them...."dude we are paying to press for a 74 min CD, can't you guys come up with more??" Hence the birth of the "Bonus Tracks".
I agree, don't think vinyl or CD will be the standard for anything only options for delivering music to the fans.
Also remember everything tastes like chicken......
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Warthur
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:56 |
Sztermel wrote:
Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality. |
Tales From Topographic Oceans seems to be a case in point here, since the remastered version has an intro to the first track restored which wouldn't have fitted on the LP versions - the LP and earlier CD versions have that very abrupt start which is always a little jarring.
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Warthur
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:00 |
Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. |
I think you are right, to the extent that CDs lend themselves to be replaced by lossless digital files more easily than vinyl albums. A properly functioning CD player will read the same information from the CD each time, for instance, whereas with vinyl the needle will pick up something mildly different each time the disc is played (and there's an extent to which this is part of the charm).
| Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. |
I have to admit, as much affection as I have for Trespass, I have never found a copy on any format which didn't sound like it was recorded through a thick layer of socks. Though my vinyl copy does feel like a mild improvement over CD.
| Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version. |
I would say that classic Yes albums are worth having LP copies of even if you only ever listen to the CDs (or high-quality downloads), because CD-sized packaging just can't do the Roger Dean artwork justice.
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dr wu23
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:38 |
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Both formats have their pros and cons......I usually play cd's since it's more convenient these days but I will put on an old vinyl now and then. I don't buy any new vinyl but still look for old prog and psych ( I like the art work as many have said and it's just fun to hunt things down sometimes...). As I had said to Catcher10 my old vinyl can sound a little noisy at times so he recommended a new type of cartridge which might help that aspect, but I will probably still play more cd's in the future . Much of my listening these days is in the car to and from the office so cd's have to be the format. I just don't get enough time to play vinyl due to family and work things.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:06 |
Warthur wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. |
I think you are right, to the extent that CDs lend themselves to be replaced by lossless digital files more easily than vinyl albums. A properly functioning CD player will read the same information from the CD each time, for instance, whereas with vinyl the needle will pick up something mildly different each time the disc is played (and there's an extent to which this is part of the charm).
| Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. |
I have to admit, as much affection as I have for Trespass, I have never found a copy on any format which didn't sound like it was recorded through a thick layer of socks. Though my vinyl copy does feel like a mild improvement over CD.
| Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version. |
I would say that classic Yes albums are worth having LP copies of even if you only ever listen to the CDs (or high-quality downloads), because CD-sized packaging just can't do the Roger Dean artwork justice. |
I have all classic Yes albums on vinyl. The Yes Album I have is a German pressing so SQ is excellent, worth a bit more than my US edition. I say this because you brought up a good point in your original post about different pressings and such....Certain pressing plants did better work than others and also some issues were mixed/mastered by different engineers and studios, depending on your desire it makes sense to do some research to find the best sounding version people recommend. The Steve Hoffman website/forums is a great place for this type of info, those guys there are meticulous about their vinyl, a bit over board sometimes
Edited by Catcher10 - December 29 2015 at 14:12
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Meltdowner
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:21 |
Warthur wrote:
Sztermel wrote:
Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality. |
Tales From Topographic Oceans seems to be a case in point here, since the remastered version has an intro to the first track restored which wouldn't have fitted on the LP versions - the LP and earlier CD versions have that very abrupt start which is always a little jarring. |
I thought there was something wrong with my copy, the first time I played it
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Neu!mann
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:45 |
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I think the real value of CDs over vinyl can be heard in the digital re-release of live albums, which don't disrupt the concert experience by having to flip the disc over.
A good example: Grobschnitt's 1978 Solar Music Live album...the original LP was interrupted abruptly in mid-jam at the end of Side One; the compact disc is a seamless flow of music. A lot of other live albums share the same benefit...
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Neu!mann
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:46 |
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...on the other hand, an album like Hawkwind's Space Ritual is absolutely essential on vinyl, just because of the packaging!
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Guillermo
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 07:59 |
The YES "Relayer" album is better in the LP format, in my opinion. All the CD versions that I have (1988, 1994, 2003) have earlier fade-outs in comparison to the LP version at the end of all songs. So, the final keyboard notes, particularly in "The Gates of Delirium" and "To Be Over", are faded out a few seconds (3-5 seconds). Being one of my favorite albums from YES, I still like more the LP. Anyway, I think that the best CD version of this album is the 1988 version, with less seconds cut at the end of the songs.
Some CD editions of Prog or not Prog albums are not as good as the original LPs, because during the remastering process some songs are faded in later (for example, one songs in Jim Capaldi's "Oh How We Danced" album on CD from 1996) or faded out earlier (for example, one song in George Harrison's "Living in the Material World" remastered CD from 2006). Others lack bass (like the first version on CD from Grand Funk Railroad's "Closer to Home" CD from 1988; the LP from 1971 sounds better!).
Edited by Guillermo - December 30 2015 at 08:11
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Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.
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Nightfly
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 08:36 |
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison.
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Catcher10
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:27 |
Nightfly wrote:
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison. |
I agree with you, 70's power rock/metal almost always sounds better on vinyl, especially the original issues. The mix on drums has that big beefy sound on vinyl. The CD versions always sound thin and without beef, those lower tones seem to fail with digital for some reason.
The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters.  I was hoping they would sound better...
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moshkito
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:38 |
Catcher10 wrote:
..."dude we are paying to press for a 74 min CD, can't you guys come up with more??" Hence the birth of the "Bonus Tracks".... |
Except Klaus Schulze ... the mix is always different and the listen ... another treat! And sometimes even longer ... and longer ... and longer ... and you become serialized heavenly experienced!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
