Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 8860
Posted: January 08 2016 at 09:09
While my interest in Renaissance has waxed and waned over the years, it has been undergoing a major renaissance since the band reformed about 6 years ago, in which I have been lucky enough to see them 3 times. I think the band as a whole is underappreciated, including Tout but also Dunford and especially Jon Camp's bass, which often gave them the only rock element in their sound, especially when they used no electric guitar. But most of all, I think Annie is under appreciated. She should be right up there with the best female singers ever in any genre, but instead most people, including many who were around during the band's peak period, don't even know who she is.
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:43
damn right.. I EARNED my black hat and fearsome reputation as a forum baddy.... I won't it see it diluted by genuinely nice people getting tarred and feathered.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20491
Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:38
Micky said, "no need. I can do that for him. Seriously he is not one of the bad guys of the forum who pick on the innocent. It was directed at me, for they were my words from another thread."Indeed they were......and I hope I'm one of the 'good guys'.
Edited by dr wu23 - January 03 2016 at 13:42
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Posted: January 03 2016 at 08:03
Dellinger wrote:
micky wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
^^
"it is one thing as I posted earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room."
Now I think I'm superior to whomever else you might be thinking about just because I enjoy Tout's piano playing as much as I enjoy Annie's singing in Renaissance? I don't understand the connecting dots.
don't worry man. The good doctor would never take a shot at an innocent bystander. It was directed at me, thus the double arrows.
Well, that might explain it. Perhaps Dr Wu will confirm it later on.
no need. I can do that for him. Seriously he is not one of the bad guys of the forum who pick on the innocent. It was directed at me, for they were my words
from another thread..
micky wrote:
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
I have to say I do dislike the
intellectual superiority that sometimes comes off prog fans (me
included). I like to think it's got more to do with the intensity of
focused listening and the personal tastes that need more complexity and
variation.
though I can't say I dislike it per se. it is one thing as I posted
earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a
dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more
evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: January 02 2016 at 23:23
Dellinger wrote:
So maybe I should have just said that I enjoy Tout's playing as much as Annie's singing, or whatever.
Yeah, I don't see anything wrong as such with your post but my past experience tells me that people get all fussy about semantics on the net when they are angry and forget that everything is just an opinion. So you can cover yourself by making sure you word it in an unambiguously subjective way.
Dellinger wrote:
As for Renaissance without Tout, or either of their solo albums, I actually don't yet know them, but the sound they made together was so beautiful I really want to hear them that way. What little I have heard from Renaissance after Scheherazade hasn't impressed me so much (most of which is from when Tout was still in the band, anyway), so I have not been in a hurry to get more albums from them, so my opinion is biased to only have heard them together (mostly).
Depends on what songs you've heard. Also, it's bound to be DIFFERENT and it's up to each listener whether they want to embrace that difference or not. Captive Heart is actually the purest showcase of both Annie Haslam and John Tout's talents in the entire Renaissance canon. They were both at the peak of their powers here and this was the one odd song from that phase - Novella/SFAS/Azure D Or - where there was nothing but Annie's vocals and Tout's lovely piano for the entire song. No drums even. The tune as such is not that appealing but the two had by then matured to the level where they could transcend the composition.
There was never any non-Annie Renaissance that also had John Tout. I meant Renaissant which was an offshot, with songs written by Terence Sullivan, sung by his wife and with contributions from Tout. Renaissant doesn't match up to the 70s Renaissance albums but it is better than either Tuscany or Grandine Il Vento, the last two Renaissance albums released in 2000 and 2013 respectively.
Annie Haslam's first solo album, the aptly captioned Annie in Wonderland, is arguably her best solo work and also her own favourite. It is not prog in any form or shape but it is also helluva eclectic and has a lightness that was missing in Renaissance especially post-Ashes are Burning. I am posting two tracks from the album and will stop there lest this becomes a Svetty-like youtube spam.
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
Posted: January 02 2016 at 23:22
Actually, he may be under-appreciated - his classical chops are practically up there with the best, just Tout opted for the 'subtle' approach, where it wasn't pompous and dominating, but equally as skillful and effective.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12609
Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:57
micky wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
^^
"it is one thing as I posted earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room."
Now I think I'm superior to whomever else you might be thinking about just because I enjoy Tout's piano playing as much as I enjoy Annie's singing in Renaissance? I don't understand the connecting dots.
don't worry man. The good doctor would never take a shot at an innocent bystander. It was directed at me, thus the double arrows.
Well, that might explain it. Perhaps Dr Wu will confirm it later on.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12609
Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:55
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ May have been referring to this sentence, "<span style="line-height: 18.2px; : rgb248, 248, 252;">I must say that Annie AND Tout are required to really enjoy what they were capable from" which seems to suggest, though you may not have intended it so, that that is how their work is meant to be enjoyed. </span>
<span style="line-height: 18.2px; : rgb248, 248, 252;">I wouldn't completely go along with that anyway. Annie did just fine on the solo album Annie in Wonderland; arguably sounded liberated without the heavy classical arrangements of Renaissance (esp the contemporaneous Novella). Likewise, John Tout did fine on the Renaissant album. Sometimes fans get too attached to the particular blend of sounds of a combination of musicians/vocalists, when they may well have the versatility to express themselves in a different way. So I understand why the combination of Annie-John Tout may appear indispensable but would also question whether that is really the case.</span>
So maybe I should have just said that I enjoy Tout's playing as much as Annie's singing, or whatever. As for Renaissance without Tout, or either of their solo albums, I actually don't yet know them, but the sound they made together was so beautiful I really want to hear them that way. What little I have heard from Renaissance after Scheherazade hasn't impressed me so much (most of which is from when Tout was still in the band, anyway), so I have not been in a hurry to get more albums from them, so my opinion is biased to only have heard them together (mostly).
Joined: March 03 2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 561
Posted: January 02 2016 at 10:53
Renaissance is unrecognized and underappreciated by the music community in general, IMHO. They occupy a very special niche in the progressive rock cannon. Tout's playing is fluid and an essential part of the Renaissance sound. Sure, others can adequately reproduce what he did, but hindsight is 20/20.
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Posted: January 02 2016 at 09:34
Dellinger wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
^^
"it is one thing as I posted earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room."
Now I think I'm superior to whomever else you might be thinking about just because I enjoy Tout's piano playing as much as I enjoy Annie's singing in Renaissance? I don't understand the connecting dots.
don't worry man. The good doctor would never take a shot at an innocent bystander. It was directed at me, thus the double arrows.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: January 02 2016 at 02:26
^^^ May have been referring to this sentence, "I must say that Annie AND Tout are required to really enjoy what they were capable from" which seems to suggest, though you may not have intended it so, that that is how their work is meant to be enjoyed.
I wouldn't completely go along with that anyway. Annie did just fine on the solo album Annie in Wonderland; arguably sounded liberated without the heavy classical arrangements of Renaissance (esp the contemporaneous Novella). Likewise, John Tout did fine on the Renaissant album. Sometimes fans get too attached to the particular blend of sounds of a combination of musicians/vocalists, when they may well have the versatility to express themselves in a different way. So I understand why the combination of Annie-John Tout may appear indispensable but would also question whether that is really the case.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12609
Posted: January 01 2016 at 21:21
dr wu23 wrote:
^^
"it is one thing as I posted earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room."
Now I think I'm superior to whomever else you might be thinking about just because I enjoy Tout's piano playing as much as I enjoy Annie's singing in Renaissance? I don't understand the connecting dots.
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20491
Posted: January 01 2016 at 13:10
^^
"it is one thing as I posted earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room."
Edited by dr wu23 - January 01 2016 at 13:10
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12609
Posted: January 01 2016 at 13:09
Of course the reason I was interested on getting to know Renaissance in the first place was Annie, however, once I've known some of them, I must say that Annie AND Tout are required to really enjoy what they were capable from. And to say I enjoy Tout's piano playing just about as much as I enjoy Annies singing means I really think his playing was very beatuiful indeed.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: January 01 2016 at 06:25
I don't completely agree there. Say between Face of Yesterday and Sounds of the Sea/Bound for Infinity, there is some continuity. With AAB, they moved a little away from that and with Cards, it was a clean break from that sound. And then there's the small matter of Mr Pine and Running Hard. *evil laughter*
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: January 01 2016 at 05:06
We have to separate virtuosity/touch here from ideation/creativity. Some of Tout's much loved piano passages were direct quotes from classical compositions NOT yet out of copyright. Be that as it may, the gambit of opening compositions with long piano passages overstayed its welcome by a fair bit. One may perhaps blame Dunford as the chief songwriter for this but I remember in an interview Dunford credited Tout as the guy who devised the orchestral arrangements for the tracks. So, if we have to compare Tout with Banks from the perspective of originality, it is entirely fair that he is not held in the same regard as Banks. From the perspective of playing, it could be argued that he was the better pianist. Or it may have been that Banks simply chose a different way, which did not emphasise a grand display of virtuosity at the expense of brevity.
Anyhow, the reason why he was underappreciated may have been Annie overshadowing him. While Tesar's touch is not as delicate as Tout's, he is able to do a very good job of playing the piano portions and so Tout's absence is not noticeable, not in a way that seriously detracts from the shows. To be fair, Tout used to simultaneously play synth and piano on stage whereas the new band has the luxury of two keyboardists. But the larger point is the compositions were geared to place Annie's vocals at the center and not as a showcase for piano. That may not have been the intention to begin with, given Annie and Tout were originally promoted as the twin lead instruments of the band, but eventually (esp by Song for All Seasons) Annie's vocals became the chief attraction.
Joined: January 01 2016
Location: Burnaby,Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Posted: January 01 2016 at 04:44
Is John Tout, the late Keyboardist of circa 1970's UK band Renaissance (classic lineup), under recognized and under appreciated as an arranger and performer? Should he get the same kind of attention as Tony Banks of circa 1970's Genesis (esp. Peter Gabriel period)? For those of you new to circa 1970's Progressive Rock music (particularly out of the UK) do you find the dominance of his keyboard work on the 1970's albums (Ashes Are Burning/Turn of the Cards/Scheherazade and Other Stories/Live at Carnegie Hall/Novella in particular) overwhelming or underwhelming? For those of you who listen to the current Renassiance Touring Band headed by Annie Haslam - do you think Rave Tesar is artisically sensitive to the keyboard parts of the songs she chooses? Does the current dictates of the Music Business corrupt the music of Renaissance to attract a larger audience for live performances? Your respectful comments please.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.113 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
John Tout of Renaissance under appreciated?
Topic Options
Dellinger wrote:
though I can't say I dislike it per se. it is one thing as I posted
earlier that keeps prog from getting boring.. the fans of it. Never a
dull moment when you get a bunch of people that think they are more
evolved and superior to others all gathered in the same room.
