Brexit

We'd be absolutely mad to consider leaving...

Jared wrote: We'd be absolutely mad to consider leaving...

Really? Why?

I have not finally made my mind up yet. I must say, though, that the "debate" and, especially, the stance of the stay in camp, leaves me absolutely cold. The scare and fear tactics utilised have shown politics in this country at their very worst. I would not be a bit surprised if our esteemed Secretary of State for Heath issued a warning in coming weeks that voting to leave the EU increases your chances of getting cancer by at least 75% Pathetic and a disgrace, really.

I am not Welsh by birth, but have lived here for over 16 years. I have been a member of Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Nationalists, for a few years now, and am one of the rare people in the party who tend towards a Eurosceptic stance. Actually, the party's position on Europe does not make much sense intellectually. It strikes me as being rather strange to object to an unaccountable, bureaucratic, distant government ruling us from Whitehall (I agree), but then, in the same breath, to want to be ruled from an even more unaccountable, bureaucratic, and distant government in Brussels. Utter nonsense, really, and an issue which may well tip me into leaving the party.

The EU, as with most centralised monsters, is in an utter mess. Is UK government any better? Nope. Full of incompetent morons who seem to have very little sense of how to adapt to a rather scary world, and who seem hellbent themselves on creating a centralised state which the likes of Foot and Benn could only really dream of.

As I commented in the US election thread, there is a very real and understandable attitude amongst ordinary people that government is not delivering and working for them. This is extremely important, and a growing sense of discontent might, I hope, lead to real change.

My grandmother was Maltese, and I qualify for a passport there. We go there on holiday annually, so I am, in fact, very well disposed towards the continent. I am also extremely mindful of the fact that this experiment commenced with a very real and positive wish to put the horrors of two world wars and genocidal acts behind us, and, in that sense, it has been a roaring success.

It is, though, utterly in hock to global corporations. It is shockingly run, and disgracefully unaccountable. It is a centralised monstrosity delivering bugger all to the majority of people living in it, with economic, political, and social issues really not giving anyone a sense that it can be turned around. I certainly do not see any real will to change - witness the pathetic reception Cameron received with that renegotiation which was, in all reality, an utter piss take, both of him, and us.

I suspect that the British people will, in the end, vote to remain, to keep both the status quo, and because of the ridiculous scaremongering going on. It will not, though, be with anything approaching enthusiasm, and the time when the impact of political drift comes knocking on our doors will not, I fear, be a pleasant one.

So. Mad to think about leaving? No, not at all. In fact, it is perfectly rational.

Britain out, Ethiopia in.

And the Dutch and the Czech Republic are also considering a referendum as a prelude to their exit.

The current systems seems to give people like Anjem Choudary room to thrive and potential economic repercussions aside leaving the EU will make it easier to fight such cancer.

Edited by Matthew _Gill - February 27 2016 at 18:00

Blacksword wrote: I don't really understand the Calais situation. They want to demolish the camp and give its inhabitants social housing. To do so I guess they'd be granting them full asylum, and if they were to be issued French passports they could all come to the UK legally anyway if they still wanted to... I don't understand what the problem is. I also don't understand why the refugees would turn down the opportunity of housing in favour of living in a filthy camp in the rain.

Well, I don't believe for a second that the Northern France authorities want to create decent housing... The Front National is the dominant force since a couple of months ago, so they just want to demolish everything and hope most of the refugees go to Belgium (some already have)

And should they indeed provide better housing, the refugees will have to apply for refugee status in France, which they don't want. This would stop them in their quest in having that status in the UK.

chopper wrote: Blacksword wrote: I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know' I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side. I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going.

^Not necessarily of course, but I guess there is a fair chance. If there will be a referendum about an NLexit one day, I'd gladly take the risk .

someone_else wrote: chopper wrote: Blacksword wrote: I may not vote in the referendum, as I, like everyone else is not armed with adequate information to make an informed and non politcally motivated choice. I had been strongly in the OUT camp, but now I'm not sure, probably because I'm falling for the most effectve weapon that the IN brigade have in the armoury, and that is the masses fear of the unknown and inclination to go with the 'devil you know' I'm in the "undecided" camp. As Andy says, we don't really have the information to know what will happen either way and neither does anyone. It's all guesswork and a load of rhetoric from each side. I will probably wait and see which way the big businesses are going. Part of the information is easily available: Countries like Switzerland and Norway are doing fine without being part of the EU. Iceland has overcome a financial crisis some years ago without the EU. Fear of the unknown is a strong weapon in the hands of the IN brigade indeed, but a poor counsellor. When I try to visualize the road of the EU, I cannot get the cover of that 1977 Kansas album out of my head...

Norway, Iceland d Lichtenstein as you rightly point out, part of EEA agreament, like followinEU legislastions but have no say in EU parlamentaric meatings/situations. Ironicly the Secretary General of European Council in Strasbourgh is Norwegian, Torbjørn Jagland

I am aware that the European Union is a far from perfect organisation, but I also believe that it can be a force for good.
For centuries we spent a lot of time at war with France or Germany or Spain.
Along with NATO, the EU has done a lot to bring the states and peoples of Europe especially Western Europe together. These are people who we do have a lot in common with cultrally.
What a terrible waste it would be to throw this away and walk away like a petulant child who isn't getting his own way on everything.