Brexit

Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals...

..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask )

With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out.

We will learn the hard way. Eventually.

It's not just on a peace-keeping PoV that Europe has been prolific...

lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals... ..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask ) With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out. We will learn the hard way. Eventually. Absolutely spot on regarding the flow of cheap labour. It is a policy that is having massive ramifications, all of them detrimental, on working standards and wages across the continent. This is, to me, the main reason why I cannot understand for the life of me the unequivocal backing of the European "project" by so-called socialists and social democrats. The answer, of course, if the project is to continue, is to genuinely harmonise incomes via minimum living standards across the piece. This should be to the highest level, but they will not do this, because of a mixture of corporate interests, and, of course, the fact that the economies are so vastly divergent, which shows the utter folly of the move towards a single currency in the first instance.

I agree.

The TTIP is not going to improve things either.

Please read this..

EU Trade minister on the TTIP


The EU project is a corporate project not a social project. It's sad that so many of us fell for it. It's aim is transparently to reduce living standards overall, and hand governance to corporations.

Blacksword wrote: lazland wrote: Blacksword wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: Norawy is also signed up to the Shengan (?) agreement so have open borders to other EU states.   I believe even Iceland is in the Schengen agreements.   Could be that these small tax-evasion havens (Monte Carlo, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein , etc...) are also in...   But most likely tax-evasion havens like Gibraltar, Guernsey, Sark or Man will never be.     And TBH, I'm willing to drop those Schengen things if that's what it takes to "save Europe"...   Who cares about controls at the borders?? And freedom of workers only profit the wealthy, not the locals... ..and EU migration to Switzerland is also proportionally higher than to most other EU states (apparently - I'm not sure if I actually believe that. It's like anything relating to the EU; it depends who you ask ) With regard to open borders, freedom of movement of labour etc, it does seem to elude the attention of your average well meaning liberal that the purpose of this policy is to benefit huge corporations by ensuring supplies of cheap labour, driving wages down for everyone ultimately, but many still see this policy as something wholesome and almost philanthropic. When in fact it's just part of the brutal process of globalisation, the aim of which is to consolidate as much wealth in the hands of as few people as possible, not to re-distribute it in some kind of socialist free for all hand out. We will learn the hard way. Eventually. Absolutely spot on regarding the flow of cheap labour. It is a policy that is having massive ramifications, all of them detrimental, on working standards and wages across the continent. This is, to me, the main reason why I cannot understand for the life of me the unequivocal backing of the European "project" by so-called socialists and social democrats. The answer, of course, if the project is to continue, is to genuinely harmonise incomes via minimum living standards across the piece. This should be to the highest level, but they will not do this, because of a mixture of corporate interests, and, of course, the fact that the economies are so vastly divergent, which shows the utter folly of the move towards a single currency in the first instance. I agree. The TTIP is not going to improve things either. Please read this.. EU Trade minister on the TTIP The EU project is a corporate project not a social project. It's sad that so many of us fell for it. It's aim is transparently to reduce living standards overall, and hand governance to corporations.

Thanks for sharing that article, Andy. Fascinating, and this from a newspaper which is just about as far away from a rabid anti-EU rag as it is possible to get, with the possible exception of the dear old Grauniad.

As I have said before in this, and other threads, we seem to be sleepwalking into the type of dystopian corporate nightmare which, not that long ago, was regarded as mere science fiction, and, should there be, or maybe when there is, a revolt against this, I really do fear the worst, and I say this as someone who is generally rather upbeat - glass half full, etc.