Brexit leave voters vs. Trump supporters.

I'm probably the only anti-Trump person on here that would've voted to leave if I were a British citizen. Look, the immigration crisis is indeed a problem, as too many immigrants, regardless of what religion, race or gender they are, would have a negative impact on the economy. The migrants coming here probably don't care about the rules here, which is a shame really. I wouldn't go as far to say it's an "invasion" (mainly because if it were, then it's one of the worst I've ever seen LOL). It doesn't help much since they're Middle-Eastern Muslims (whose countries don't have a good track record in regards to human rights), and a majority of them aren't even from Syria (where we SHOULD get the refugees).

CPicard wrote: Michael678 wrote: I'm probably the only anti-Trump person on here that would've voted to leave if I were a British citizen. Look, the immigration crisis is indeed a problem, as too many immigrants, regardless of what religion, race or gender they are, would have a negative impact on the economy. The migrants coming here probably don't care about the rules here, which is a shame really. I wouldn't go as far to say it's an "invasion" (mainly because if it were, then it's one of the worst I've ever seen LOL). It doesn't help much since they're Middle-Eastern Muslims (whose countries don't have a good track record in regards to human rights), and a majority of them aren't even from Syria (where we SHOULD get the refugees). Notice I'm talking about Muslim immigration, and Polish. I mean, seriously, since when did they get involved? How are they a problem, ffs? I'm not sure to really understand your argumentation: since Lebanon and Turkey "welcome" around 1 million Syrian refugees each, should these countries also leave UE because of the immigration Crisis?

Ah ah ah - Good question !

(We are so baffled with the present state of the world that we start to mix and confuse everything)


Edited by Quinino - July 26 2016 at 10:00

Turkeys EU membership bid is all but dead in the water now, since the attempted coup. Brussels can't allow such an unstable country to be part of the union.

"...
I'm rather baffled since Lebanon and Turkey are not members of l'Union européenne
..."

Ah Ah Ah (can't stop laughing)

Hey everybody, loosen up and let some humour into your hearts and minds

No complaint from me, Greg, I sometimes slip to a serious mood too .

Treating people with respect should be instinctive. If it's not then your parents have failed you. Legislating to make people speak in a particular way to protect select groups of people in society is NOT going to change the underlying and ingrained character of individuals who seek to offend others, it's going to antagonise them and make their behaviour worse.

In any case PC is a spectrum. While it is clearly unacceptable to refer to black person using a the 'n word' (for example) it is demonstrably ridiculous, for example, for the city of Seattle to ban it's public sector workers from bringing their lunch to work in brown bags, because the term 'brown bag' has a historical racist connotation that no one was aware if anyway. Equally for some schools to ban the use of the words 'boy' and 'girl' in case it offends a five year old who hadn't made up their mind what gender they want to be, is also lunacy IMO and also, I feel doesn't have a benign intention behind it.

From Seinfeld to Cleese to Stephen Fry to Maher to Chomsky classical liberals are voicing concern over the strict controls on speech that are coming in certain forums, like college campuses, and the damage it's doing, and rightly so.

You don't have to be a Donald Trump supporter to be concerned about the excessive rise of PC. If you do your homework you'll see there is as much concern on the left side of the fence too, but it is more politically expedient for media and politicians to characterise opposition to PC as right wing extremism, because it is the faux liberalista who are working hard to control speech. I think most people actually know this, but it takes balls as liberal to actually speak out about it, now that the bear trap has been set for you to fall into.

Edited by Blacksword - July 28 2016 at 04:04

I suspect that I am more left wing in my politics than most on this site. I suspect that I have spent more time politically active than most on this site. I suspect that I am one of the most vehement haters of racism, fascism, and regressive hate politics on this site.

I also suspect that I am one of the most vehement haters of Political Correctness there is on this site, precisely, by the way, for the reasons I set out above.

I agree with all of Andy's sentiments on the subject.

The seemingly ridiculous examples I gave of "PC gawn maaad" are actualy real examples. I didn't make them up. In the case of schools banning the word boy and girl, there are number of schools in the US and Australia who have adapted this as policy.

The origins of the term 'political correctness' actually came from Stalinism and refer to the 'correct' terminolgy to be used in political discussion within the party and with foreign socialist or communist entities. The term didn't come from the right, although I agree it's used mainly by those on the right these days.

A faux liberal is someone who characterises themslves as liberal but is not by virtue of an authoritarian 'my way or the highway' line of thought usually the domain of the far right or far left.

Dean wrote: Logan wrote: By the way, anybody else note The President Erdogan Offensive Poetry Competition done by The Spectator's Douglas Murray? Boris Johnson won it. Which brings me to this: A similarity between many Brexit leave voters and Trump supporters is that they are tired of political correctness. And hopefully one day people will see through the anti-PC propaganda. At best it is deflection and at worse it is closeted bigotry. The test is simple: replace the phrase "political correctness" with "treating people with respect":  "A similarity between many Brexit leave voters and Trump supporters is that they are tired of treating people with respect."

I agree, individual cases can be treated individually, but the anti-PC movement doesn't do much for me other than paint tons of people with the same brush.

If this were Facebook, glad it's not, I'd "like" Andy's post (course we can use thanks).

I don't believe that derogatory language is a good thing, and do think that freedom of speech must have its limits, but political correctness can not only limit ones choice of bad words and actions, but also render frank discussion about certain subjects seemingly taboo, and that can be dangerous. It's a   difficult line to draw.

I think there's a place for ridicule in society even when it offends many people's deepest beliefs, and I tend not to take things as sacred (of course there are ways to express things in a more diplomatic and sympathetic manner). Having worked with people with cognitive disabilities I do feel rather offended when people bandy about unpleasant words about people's intelligence ("stop being such a "re****" for instance, so I understand the pro-PC stance. It's a balancing act. It's also one of those charged terms that can mean different things to different people, but one should never get too hung up on labeling (something far too many unPC people do as a matter of course).

Society would be a much better place if we could all take the mickey out of ourselves, and I wish people didn't get so angry when they feel that their belief systems are being mocked or even scrutinized, far too much angry mob mentality -- my personal belief is that all ideas and beliefs should be up for scrutiny (mock my belief at your peril). ;)

Glad it sparked such discussion, as I used it as a segue before to link a discussion about Turkey and the more general discussion. For those that don't know about the Erdogan poetry competition: https://www.rt.com/uk/343531-boris-johnson-erdogan-offensive-poem/ Whether or not the German comedian was right to do such mockery, whether Angela Merkel should have "given a green light to the criminal prosecution of German comedian Jan Böhmermann for his 'defamatory poem' about Erdogan", whether provocateur Douglas Murray should have done the competition, and whether he should have given the prize to former the Spectator editor and Britain exit supporter as a political statement is probably a matter for another thread.

I rather like Foucault's (from 1968) usage of the words politically and correct "a political thought can be politically correct only if it is scientifically painstaking".