How do you identify politically?

^ I'm out. 

SteveG wrote: Dean wrote: ^ I'm out.  When it comes to American politics, and it's problems, I approve your decision.

Edited by Dean - August 06 2016 at 05:16

SteveG wrote: Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: Dean wrote: ^ I'm out.  When it comes to American politics, and it's problems, I approve your decision. That's only because you narrowed down a World-problem to a wholly American one. (or should that read holy American one ). I answer for America, as it's my right. As I've said before, I'm not a British citizen. I should make clear my position that you, as a British citizen, know what's best for the UK and leave it that, as I'm now find myself in a spiritual mood.

Edited by Dean - August 06 2016 at 06:15

Dean's analysis of the issues which afflict both America and Britain is spot on.

In a happy coincidence, there is an excellent article in today's Times by Tim Montgomerie, probably the finest Conservative commentator in Britain today. He is saying that within our (effectively) two party system, there are, in fact, at least five different movements and political views, and that it is only a matter of time before the present two parties are replaced by the new ones with these themes.

I agree with him, and I would regard this as being essential for our democracy.

The five strands are Solidarity, large government socialism a la Corbyn, National, a centre right Christian democracy party a la May, Progressives, centrist social democracy a la Umuna, Patriots, authoritarian law and order, a la Farage, and Freedom , a libertarian party committed to smaller government and civil liberties a la Davies.

These strands are utterly impossible to condense within two main parties, and yet this is what both countries presently have.

I must also absolutely endorse what Dean said about the choice facing our cousins across the pond this Autumn, namely a nutcase and a nakedly ambitious harpy. I have said it before on this and other threads. It is not a good position for a mature democracy to be in. It is a failure of democracy, and simply having to choose between the lesser of two evils is not a healthy position to be in, it really is not.

I might also add this. I have worked for government all of my adult life, and it is as plain to me as the nose on my face that the present system we have in the UK is broken. As an example. We put a chap in charge of the National Health Service, a politician. He is expected to be in charge. Yet, what qualifications does he have to run such an important and specialised service? Hint.....bugger all. His senior civil servants, likewise, are not professional medical personnel. They are all extremely clever, have fantastic qualifications, but none of them are in that field. And yet, we expect these people to be accountable for each and every decision and action in such a huge bureaucracy. Utter madness. Government is too big. By that, I mean that it is too centralised, and decisions and power is in the hands of people utterly unqualified to exercise such power. Far more decision making needs to be devolved to the people at the coal face.

These discussions are important. They go to the heart of our democracy, and of our children's future. I yearn for change, and I hope it comes sooner, rather than later.

lazland wrote: Dean's analysis of the issues which afflict both America and Britain is spot on. I agree with him, and I would regard this as being essential for our democracy.  It is a failure of democracy, and simply having to choose between the lesser of two evils is not a healthy position to be in, it really is not. I might also add this. I have worked for government all of my adult life, and it is as plain to me as the nose on my face that the present system we have in the UK is broken.

Laz, there is a great difference between a system being broken and being a failure. The American democratic system is, IMO, broken, which does not preclude the possibility that it can be fixed. I believe that the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of the American and British systems can only be resolved by those that understand them. I don't believe that a Brit can understand Jim Crow anymore than an American could understand the deeper issues that resulted in "the troubles" that plagued Northern Ireland and Britain until a very short time ago.

Edited by SteveG - August 06 2016 at 10:11

SteveG wrote: lazland wrote: Dean's analysis of the issues which afflict both America and Britain is spot on. I agree with him, and I would regard this as being essential for our democracy.  It is a failure of democracy, and simply having to choose between the lesser of two evils is not a healthy position to be in, it really is not. I might also add this. I have worked for government all of my adult life, and it is as plain to me as the nose on my face that the present system we have in the UK is broken. Laz, there is a great difference between a system being broken and being a failure. The American democratic system is, IMO, broken, which does not preclude the possibility that it can be fixed. I believe that the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of the American and British systems can only be resolved by those that understand them. I don't believe that a Brit can understand Jim Crow anymore than an American could understand the deeper issues that resulted in "the troubles" that plagued Northern Ireland and Britain until a very short time ago.   If you and Dean can see no future in the present  British system, then I respect your right to try to fix or replace it.   I, however, have not lost all hope in America's system. The American demographic is changing faster than we can blink. This Trump lunacy is the last ditch effort of 50's right wingers to "restore America to old conservative values" before they drop dead and finally die out. Bernie was just too independent for his own good, but his example has put an extreme alternative candidate, that has ever been thought possible, to run for America's top rung. However, when the new mixed American demographic soon outnumbers the old, watch out world.   America's system is broken? You bet. But a fix that can't be stopped  is on the way, and many intelligent people simply fail to see it.     Edit: The demographic I referred to is racial.

It is perfectly possible for a Brit to understand Jim Crow (I believe that I do) and for a Yank to understand The Troubles. Both are easily understood in both political and religious contexts.

You are right to say that the systems are broken. They are also failures, in terms of negative impacts on the ordinary people in both societies. The real disagreement, I suspect, is the fix that you refer to.

I have to say to you, and forgive me if I am misunderstanding you in any way, that the election of Clinton this year will not change a damned thing. Nothing. Whatsoever. In fact, the impact of that woman will be to divide the country even more than it is now. The status quo is what will happen under her, and it is that present status quo which is leading to so many of the difficulties faced now, and I include the Trumpalot phenomena in that. Imagine, for a moment, a Trmp like figure in four or eight years time who is actually smart and electable. I somehow doubt that it sit eh type of fix that you wish for, but it is, I assure you, extremely possible.

I watched the Bill Clinton speech at the national convention. By God, how utterly depressing. I then imagined a conversation between Zack and Joe in the Rust Belt, Deep South, Mid West, where does not really matter. Imagine. "Well Joe, know what this fine nation of ours really needs?" "Yep, Zack, what this country really needs is a CHANGE MAKER". "Joe, ol' Bill had it dang on. A change maker, and that's why I'll be voting for his missus". "Yep. A change maker. Goddamm it, get down to that booth".

For f**k's sake. Really? Unutterably depressing.

Hilary will not change one thing. Her country will continue to be in hock to huge corporate vested interests. The ordinary working person will barely notice the difference, and I include in that, by the way, persons of non white ethnic origin.

I do not advocate revolution, never have. You basically replace one bureaucracy with another. What I do advocate is real change. A political system which is honest. A political system which gives the populis real choice. A political system which is representative of the people, and not the establishment, corporate, political, or by birth. The present system is failing. It is also broken. We still have a system which is, in its fundamentals, based on the Roman model of over two centuries ago. Time for a change, methinks, and, as I said in the Brexit thread, I sense that that change will come. I pray it will be a peaceful one, and I pray that things will improve. I genuinely believe that they will, because humanity is capable of great things and, above all, surviving and adapting. Something a religious person and an atheist can absolutely agree on

I leave Europe to Raff... she knows more than I do.. she educates me on that... I educrate her on the things that no European can understand about his country. Thus I tend to stay out of Euro-centric discussion. I read.. and learn.. something I do encourage for all who are out of their realm of knowledge and experience.

Is the Republican Party the only problem that faces America.. all that divides... of course not.. the point is.. fixing the problems really can not start until the Republican Party either does a 180 and not give power, voice and power to the nativsits, religious loonies, and bigots and racists that have taken over the party.. or it dies if it can not. Considering the lack of political martyr's around..willing to commit political suicide for the long term health of the party... I suspect the GOP will grind on for another 8 to 16 years..hoping against hope that things will change or leaders will no longer be in office before the sh*t really hits the fan (the political Global Warming effect haha) thus  continually losing national elections until it finally collapses upon itself.

Then this country can get to addressing it real solutons. The Republicans aren't the problem... only a symptom of it. And we won't get to solutions until they remove themselves, as they are well on the way to doing to themselves, as an obstacle to addressing very fundamental, deep rooted and time consuming issues this country has to address.  I do agree with SteveG though.. it is coming though. The GOP is working itself into irrelevance at a national level.. which is fatal ... they'll be replaced with a more vibrant and elastic party.. like the Libertarians.


Edited by micky - August 06 2016 at 11:32

SteveG wrote: lazland wrote: I have to say to you, and forgive me if I am misunderstanding you in any way, that the election of Clinton this year will not change a damned thing. Nothing. Whatsoever. I should ask you for forgiveness Steve due to my poor wording. I was tying to say that Bernie running as a presidential nominee gave me hope for the future. He was the radical change in nominee that would have been unheard of just a few short years ago. I agree that Hillary is not an agent of change, but of continuance. Frankly, the fact that she's a woman means little to me as I lived in GB in the Thatcher years! Btw, the imagined conversation between Zack and Joe was a side spliter and is the type of humor that my late wife appreciated from many your past posts.

Perhaps Zack and Joe should become a series. The British equivalent can be John and Dick.

We should always find time to laugh at, and with, situations, especially at leaders. Life, as the wise man once said, is full of sh*t, but moments that make us laugh, and exchanges such as this, are to be cherished.

micky wrote: SteveG wrote: lazland wrote: Dean's analysis of the issues which afflict both America and Britain is spot on. I agree with him, and I would regard this as being essential for our democracy.  It is a failure of democracy, and simply having to choose between the lesser of two evils is not a healthy position to be in, it really is not. I might also add this. I have worked for government all of my adult life, and it is as plain to me as the nose on my face that the present system we have in the UK is broken. Laz, there is a great difference between a system being broken and being a failure. The American democratic system is, IMO, broken, which does not preclude the possibility that it can be fixed. I believe that the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of the American and British systems can only be resolved by those that understand them. I don't believe that a Brit can understand Jim Crow anymore than an American could understand the deeper issues that resulted in "the troubles" that plagued Northern Ireland and Britain until a very short time ago.   If you and Dean can see no future in the present  British system, then I respect your right to try to fix or replace it.   I, however, have not lost all hope in America's system. The American demographic is changing faster than we can blink. This Trump lunacy is the last ditch effort of 50's right wingers to "restore America to old conservative values" before they drop dead and finally die out. Bernie was just too independent for his own good, but his example has put an extreme alternative candidate, that has ever been thought possible, to run for America's top rung. However, when the new mixed American demographic soon outnumbers the old, watch out world.   America's system is broken? You bet. But a fix that can't be stopped  is on the way, and many intelligent people simply fail to see it.     Edit: The demographic I referred to is racial. only half followed this... I could give two sh*ts about Britian and their problems. They have them... it is is up to them to fix them. I won't claim to care or know enough to tell Britains what their situation is or what they should do.  The solution here is very clear.. we have one party that continues to divide the popuation... play to people's fears and stand in the way of the natural demographic and poltical evolution of this country.  We do have problems. Your post was spot on.  We are in the process of fixing ours... first thing is rooting out the nativists, racists, and nostaligiasts for a 50's white America. It is a fight we can't lose and they can't win... numbers, trends and the march of history on our side to finally clean up this country and perhaps finally address some long standing issues we have as a self proclaimed freedom loving nation that has a long history in violence, racism and bigtory.

lazland wrote:   I do not advocate revolution, never have. You basically replace one bureaucracy with another. What I do advocate is real change. A political system which is honest. A political system which gives the populis real choice. A political system which is representative of the people, and not the establishment, corporate, political, or by birth. The present system is failing. It is also broken. We still have a system which is, in its fundamentals, based on the Roman model of over two centuries ago. Time for a change, methinks, and, as I said in the Brexit thread, I sense that that change will come. I pray it will be a peaceful one, and I pray that things will improve. I genuinely believe that they will, because humanity is capable of great things and, above all, surviving and adapting. Something a religious person and an atheist can absolutely agree on