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Progfan97402 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Progressive electronic music in CGI video
    Posted: October 14 2016 at 00:32
I ran across this very early CGI video dating from 1974, which was created by Frederic Parke from the University of Utah. He, as well as Ed Catmull helped pioneer CGI in the 1970s, and Catmull helped found the Pixar Animation Studios. This 1974 video depicts a face morphing into different face, eye, and mouth shapes, then some more detailed videos including more realistic looking eyes (you can see the pupils and full eyeballs, not black space like the earlier faces), and a talking face speaking an Emily Dickinson poem. Before the face speaks Dickinson, in the background is some really tripped out progressive electronic music, seemingly of unknown origin. It doesn't appear that anyone knows the artist who created the music to this video, although it sounds like it was created off a modular Moog. It has that nice '70s vibe I really enjoy, appropriate for some of the earliest CGI out there. Although I'll doubt I'll ever get to know the artist who did the music, I do dig both the music, and the animation. By the way, this animation was later used in the 1976 movie Futureworld, as well as (many years later) in a (yuck) Miley Cyrus video.



Edited by Progfan97402 - October 14 2016 at 00:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 06:26
That sounds like an ARP 2500. That is actually more electronic sounding than what Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk were doing in 1974. Most likely someone at the University of Utah created that music. There is some music from the early '70s that sounds similar; quite a few synth-only albums came out at the time. It's really interesting to see proto-CGI from that early though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 07:32
That's nice, although I'd be more interested about learning about how they did the CGI than finding out who did the music Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 07:56
My guess is the music originated from a library music album, but I had no luck tracking that down. If that was done by someone from the University of Utah, I would believe he should have recorded an album. I am completely unaware the University of Utah had an ARP 2500 in their music department in the 1970s but then I don't know. I never lived in Utah, and born in 1972 making me born way too late to attend university in the '70s. I do realize the ARP 2500 was more popular in academia than with professional musicians, although the likes of Pete Townshend, David Hentschel and others used the 2500. The modular Moog was popular with both professional musicians and in academia.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 08:07
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

That's nice, although I'd be more interested about learning about how they did the CGI than finding out who did the music Tongue


You can at least find info on Frederic Parke online, since he was a CGI pioneer. I imagine trying CGI in 1974 was very difficult given it was brand new technology. From what I understand he still lectures at the University of Utah. As for his partner Ed Catmull, he ended up involving himself in movies, founding Pixar, as mentioned before.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 08:18
I found this video they made two years earlier. It's interesting how they used a real model with drawn polygons. I guess the technology improved soon after that, to be able to make something that complex.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2016 at 22:28
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

That sounds like an ARP 2500. That is actually more electronic sounding than what Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk were doing in 1974. Most likely someone at the University of Utah created that music. There is some music from the early '70s that sounds similar; quite a few synth-only albums came out at the time. It's really interesting to see proto-CGI from that early though.


Of course, I do know there were plenty of progressive electronic artists from the early '70s (even late '60s) that were synth only, like Mort Garson (although he did include vocalists and narrators on many of his electronic albums), Nik Raicevic, and TONTO's Expanding Head Band. The music in this 1974 CGI video isn't too terribly different from said artists, perhaps a bit more calm though. This music also reminds me of newer retro-progressive electronic artists found on Bandcamp, like DSR Lines out of Belgium (who are not in Prog Archives, although should be).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2016 at 00:19
I was a bit surprised to see the guess was an ARP 2500 because a good portion of stuff I've heard from one, usually from YouTube postings have this buzzy quality, obviously using the sawtooth wave. I am fully aware of the few major recordings using one, like from the Who, David Hentschel's involvement with Elton John ("Funeral for A Friend"), Roger Powell's Cosmic Furnace, and the likes. I'm sure the 2500 could create tones like that in the CGI video by using the sinewave. The reason I was guessing modular Moog on the CGI video was the faint bass rhythm in the background had that Moog like quality.

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

That sounds like an ARP 2500. That is actually more electronic sounding than what Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk were doing in 1974. Most likely someone at the University of Utah created that music. There is some music from the early '70s that sounds similar; quite a few synth-only albums came out at the time. It's really interesting to see proto-CGI from that early though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2016 at 05:01
Here's a friend of mine restoring an ARP 2500.

http://arp2500.blogspot.co.uk/

I'm always fascinated by the early Moog and ARP modulars - they were so badly built. When you compare the electronics in this with modern electronics, it's quite amazing that they worked at all. 

Those who have no idea what they're talking about will say "that's what makes them sound so good" and ah ah no, it's frankly not. If you're trying to get enough voltage at one point on the PCB to get something to work properly or even reasonably, and you're using badly toleranced resistors and leaky electrolytic capacitors, the "charm" of using bad old components soon wears off. 

Moogs from the same period look similarly thrown together, unsurprisingly. A lot of components would have to be hand tested to see if they were in reasonable tolerances. Replicating the same technology today using modern versions of old components, it's a lot less work. I can be fairly sure that what I build now is going to work. 

Mind you, I did confuse two Schmitt inverting trigger chips for TL074 op amps recently in a Timbre generator, which lead to a lot of white smoke and curses and the multimeter coming out. All sorted now. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2016 at 05:08
Another thing. If you look at the component density on the PCBs for the ARP 2500, no thought had been given to miniaturisation. Components were laid out to give the assembler lots of working space. This is why the 2500 was the size of a small barn. And there were very few custom chips at the time. 

If you look at what's inside a TL072 or TL074 op amp chip - basic building block of analogue synths - I shudder to think of how you'd replicate that using standard transistors and resistors. The big old modulars look impressive but, at the end of the day, the functionality of then can easily be replicated in a rack mount system today which is much more compact. And that's using modern through hole equivalents of the technology used at the time - not SMT components. SMT allows you to build even smaller. Plus you get to curse more as you drop a 100k resistor on a carpet which is 100k resistor coloured and you scrabble around looking for a 0.5mm component. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2016 at 19:50
I'm hardly a technical expert on synthesizers and what makes them produce sound, I can't understand schematics, I don't know how circuits work, but I am fully aware of the technical shortcoming many of those modular systems of the time. I am ever so glad I don't have $15,000+ to blow on such systems (knowing that these problems would arise and the pain to keep them running), few people are made of that kind of money. It's similar with the Mellotron, the pain it is to keep them running (Rick Wakeman was famously so fed up with the issues of reliability he was said to burned two of them in a bonfire in 1982, at a time when no one gave a rip about Mellotrons, Mike Pinder on the other hand, did work for the Bradleys before the Moody Blues, so at least he knew the mechanics and wasn't too surprised if he ran across those issues). Given my limited budget, I could barely afford a MicroKorg, while it don't have that big sound of those modular synths, it's very affordable, portable, lightweight, and reliable (even Jean Michel Jarre has used one). I will always admit the great sounds those modular synths make (so many of my favorite recordings using the Modular Moog), this 1974 CGI video I posted up above only proves that, and of course many progressive electronic artists we all know and love, or even prog keyboardists, for that matter (Emerson being the most obvious example). Despite whatever shortcomings of modular synths, I understand a couple universities here in America still have an ARP 2500 in their music department. How they kept those things running for some 45 years is a big miracle!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2016 at 07:17
$15k, ah no. That would buy you a ratty Minimoog.

The *reissue* Moog Keith Emerson replica (uses as many original components as possible) is $150,000. 

Whilst no figures are available, Moog is reckoned to have made between 200 and 400 modular systems. Some will be smaller one box units, so it doesn't take much to work out how few of the big systems are around. ARP made quite a few 2500's, but you could probably fit all the owners in a Greyhound bus. 

I've got a modern modular system in front of me which cost about $5k. It does ten times what the old systems could do. Moog - if you want an old 5U style system, will charge me about £500 for *filter* alone. Or I could make one for about £30 myself. If that. ;-)

Incidentally, if Moog style systems are your thang, have a look at synthesizers.com - relatively affordable systems, nothing like the cost of old modulars. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2016 at 07:19
PS My modular (six oscillators) just mumbling to itself a few days ago. ;-) I made most of this myself. Actually, I might be moving into making some custom modules in a while. If I ever find the right component libraries for Eagle PCB. ;-)

https://soundcloud.com/brotherhoodofthemachine/six-oscillators

Edited by Davesax1965 - December 06 2016 at 07:21

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2016 at 10:02
I guess I was way off about what a modular Moog costs these days, I probably was thinking what one might have cost in the 1990s (probably still more then) , I can't believe a Mini Moog now goes for $15,000 (from seeing prices, I'd save some money by buying a brand new Mini Moog Voyager, it's still more than I can afford, though), because in 1989, at a time no one was interested in old analog synths, it was difficult to sell a Mini Moog for around $500 at that time. Too bad in 1989 I was only 16/17 years old, and while I have been exposed to the sounds of analog synths via Jean Michel Jarre, and the TV series Project Universe (which features some great progressive electronic that unfortunately never made it on album) (I first heard of Tangerine Dream around this time, but I dismissed them as just New Age, probably because what I heard on public radio was their then-new stuff that didn't impress me in the least, but then I made a huge mistake dismissing them that way, once I started buying their classic 1970s albums in the 1990s), I barely knew the gear that made this music, even if the Jarre albums clearly listed the gear he used. I obviously loved the sounds even then.

Edited by Progfan97402 - December 06 2016 at 10:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2016 at 10:27
By the way, when I mentioned how it was difficult to sell a Mini Moog for around $500 in 1989, just think: that same price (I mean $500 in current day money, not inflation adjusted) in this day and age can only get you a Yamaha DX-7, or any other similar 1980s digital synths.

It was around 1993 that I started learning more about analog keyboards (also where I started getting exposed to lesser known prog acts), and between 1993 and 1995 I was able to acquire a couple of analog keyboards, the ARP Omni-2 and ARP Solus, both for around $400 each. The big shock: I purchased a non-working ARP 2600 for just $30 in 1995, you read right, $30. It was the 1974-76 version, where the keyboard gives you duophonic capabilities if you plug a patch cord from the keyboard to one of the oscillators. Anyways, I sent it in to be repaired, I only had a $300 budget, and had it returned to me mostly working, but it still didn't transmit in stereo, and the pre-amp still didn't work, but I loved getting those classic analog sounds. It even had book with various patches, one of them being Edgar Winter's "Frankenstein", it was such a trip that I was able to recreate that synth sound effect heard in a classic rock song! So I was able to acquire some vintage synths in the 1990s with not a lot of money (the only real granddaddy being the ARP 2600), but in this day and age, that would be totally out of the question. I still have them with me, unfortunately in storage, because I live in a duplex where there's no space to put them in. To see what vintage keyboards go these days is just plain insane. It reminds me how many of these rare and obscure prog LPs are going for insane prices, like the UK swirl Vertigo LPs, for example, the Gentle Giant LPs regularly going for at least $200 (but unbelievably, I acquired a UK swirl original of Acquiring the Taste just very recently, in 2015, for only $20! It's all playable, no skips, just the usual wear and tear, and someone writing an "X" on the cover), of course that's nothing compared to some of the Italian prog LPs, like an original Italian pressing of Museo Rosenbach's Zarathustra, heaven forbid an original of Cherry Five. It's almost impossible to find the Gentle Giant LP I mentioned for $20, maybe a later US pressing on the spaceship label, but definitely NOT the UK swirl original, which is the big reason for the shock.


Edited by Progfan97402 - December 06 2016 at 10:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2016 at 18:33
Originally posted by Progfan97402 Progfan97402 wrote:

By the way, when I mentioned how it was difficult to sell a Mini Moog for around $500 in 1989, just think: that same price (I mean $500 in current day money, not inflation adjusted) in this day and age can only get you a Yamaha DX-7, or any other similar 1980s digital synths.
 
Tell me about it! I wish I'd purchased a Roland Jupiter 8 back in the late '80s or '90s...! Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2016 at 09:49
Yep, sold a Korg MS10 for £175 in about '87.

Money in pocket. Sat next to a rack of Rickenbacker basses, which no one wanted. Picked a few up, messed about - usual neck problems with Rickys, thought, naaaa. Went home.

That was my last chance to buy a 4001 or 4003. ;-)

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