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Do you believe in man-made global warming?

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Poll Question: Is man-made greenhouse warming a hoax/ conspiracy?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
15 [31.25%]
33 [68.75%]
0 [0.00%]
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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do you believe in man-made global warming?
    Posted: January 04 2017 at 18:59
Read the poll question before voting. I'm amazed at how many people deny the evidence for man-made (or shall I at least say sped up by industrial technology) global (greenhouse) warming, and I'm very skeptical about the motives of many of them when they do. I don't quite like the term man-made, but I think you know what I mean.

"The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive" (Donald Trump).

Yes, I do think he's full of hot air. It doesn't make historical sense either, since the concept of greenhouse gasses/ man induced climate change and global warming is such an old one.

I watched this whole debate on youtube earlier, but here's the relevant bit:



Australian Senator Malcolm Roberts has said "It is clear that climate change is a scam" and has said that NASA has corrupted data, there is no empirical evidence that people are causing global warming, and the climate models are wrong.
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mechanicalflattery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 19:29
To be fair, there's a crucial distinction between asserting that climate change is a hoax/conspiracy versus simply asserting it to be bad science. I don't believe either of those, but deniers of man-made climate change don't necessarily have to be conspiracy theorists. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 19:34
I would say the term Climate Change is not ideal because the climate does change over time and has nothing to do with man, but that is a somewhat different discussion.   Emissions that cause ozone damage do exist and clearly have a marked impact.   Pollution in general is a big problem we've always faced, even before the industrial era.

My question is, how did Los Angeles clean up their air?   When I was a kid and you'd fly in to L.A. you literally could not see it from the air due to the massive brown cloud that perpetually hung over the city.   Now the smog is much less visible except on certain days.   De-industrialization? (in SoCal, really?).   Fewer cars on the road? (let's be serious).   I mean I know they probably had some EPA mandate to do something but it was a pretty impressive clean-up in a fairly short time.




Edited by Atavachron - January 04 2017 at 19:35
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 19:53
Agree that the term climate change is not ideal. As for LA, the introduction of catalytic converters had a big effect on lessening the smog (such technology didn't stop cars from polluting, but it did lessen the impact).

Originally posted by mechanicalflattery mechanicalflattery wrote:

To be fair, there's a crucial distinction between asserting that climate change is a hoax/conspiracy versus simply asserting it to be bad science. I don't believe either of those, but deniers of man-made climate change don't necessarily have to be conspiracy theorists.†


I know, and to be clear the poll and poll question is just a fun accessory to discussion on climate change/ greenhouse warming.

Whatever the skeptic, I'm skeptical about those who deny it. My parents had a friend who invented a fuel cell for hybrid vehicles that was being touted as more environmentally friendly, and I was amazed when speaking to him that he didn't believe that carbon dioxide emissions were causing climate change.
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pastmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 20:22
Yes, there's scientific proof that technological advancements since the industrial age have at least partly caused global warming. There is, however, also a pattern of climate change that the Earth has naturally gone in, so it's not like we've completely altered the atmosphere. To believe humans have the power to do that in such a relatively short time is absurd.

I think one reason so many people don't believe in global warming is because of how blown out of proportion it's been in the past. Just look at how wrong Al Gore's predictions were. 

Oh crap, I posted something serious. Better sh*tpost.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 21:42
Absolutely there's scientific proof that technology has contributed to global warming and that there are natural climate change patterns. Al Gore is a lawyer and a politician rather than a scientist and I don't know who interpreted the data for him (to be honest, I've never really followed him). Humans have the power to do a lot of damage, and in the case of global warming, if you pump out as much CO2 as we have it's going to contribute to a greenhouse effect -- made worse by increased icemelt so less sunlight is reflected and methane is released in the tundra etc. etc. I think most people, at least here, know the basic science. What worries me is that the process of greenhouse warming can speed up exponentially due to various factors. It is interesting to think that if there were no CO2 in the atmosphere then the earth would freeze.


Edited by Logan - January 04 2017 at 21:43
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 22:54
It's real. There's no conspiracy. The evidence has been verified and published and this debate is effectivey over. It's only kept alive by people like Alex Jones, Donald Trump and David Icke.

Time to move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 23:29
Of course I felt pretty silly even doing this topic since the evidence is so overwhelming, and I tried to approach it with some humour (of the absurdist kind). There has been some conspiracy when it's come to man induced greenhouse warming deniers. For the next one I might do one that is a little more charged: Is evolution a hoax perpetrated by God?

I would love to move on, but I think humanity must ask itself one very important question, how do we convince Ted Nugent? "Global warming is a fraud. Watch Glenn Beck" (Ted Nugent).

Edited by Logan - January 04 2017 at 23:32
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 23:36
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Of course I felt pretty silly even doing this topic since the evidence is so overwhelming, and I tried to approach it with some humour (of the absurdist kind). There has been some conspiracy when it's come to man induced greenhouse warming deniers.

I would love to move on, but I think humanity must ask itself one very important question, how do we convince Ted Nugent? "Global warming is a fraud. Watch Glenn Beck" (Ted Nugent).


I'd be more concerned about convincing Donald Trump. Nugent was a no one even when he was a 'someone'....

I have to say, though, I'm kind of on George Carlins page regarding "white bourgeois liberals" who want to 'save the planet' The planet is absolutely fine, it's the people who are f***ed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2017 at 23:51
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Of course I felt pretty silly even doing this topic since the evidence is so overwhelming, and I tried to approach it with some humour (of the absurdist kind). There has been some conspiracy when it's come to man induced greenhouse warming deniers.

I would love to move on, but I think humanity must ask itself one very important question, how do we convince Ted Nugent? "Global warming is a fraud. Watch Glenn Beck" (Ted Nugent).


I'd be more concerned about convincing Donald Trump. Nugent was a no one even when he was a 'someone'....

I have to say, though, I'm kind of on George Carlins page regarding "white bourgeois liberals" who want to 'save the planet' The planet is absolutely fine, it's the people who are f***ed.


Brilliant Carlin quote.

And just to pad out my post since I have nothing really to say, most people don't care about global warming, or have different priorities. I'm not really surprised that people could support someone who supports such irrational notions and denies evidence. I mean I am no Hillary fan (not that Duff is that bad), but I'd take her over Ted Nugent any day.   
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 00:08
... as long as America does take stupid to a whole new level, like by electing a climate change denier to a position of power and influence, we'll be fine...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 02:05
I just voted the wrong way because the question in the actual poll reverses the question in the thread title. Yeah, I didn't read the poll question, but why do it that way to start with?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 02:25
A conspiracy, a hoax, a scam or just poppycock... one of these four it should be, albeit not made in China. I always have the idea that this smells a bit too much like science subdued to politics. I voted the Yes option for other reasons than Mascodagama. OK, global temperatures may be a bit beyond my scope, and at a local level the monthly average temperatures have been rising more than one degree Centigrade in some months during the last three or four decades, but I have my doubts, I cannot help it, even though the average time lapse between two editions of the Elfstedentocht has increased (the last one was held twenty years and one day ago, but that is not yet a record, this is still 22 years and 34 days, 1963-85; the "global warming" started in '87 or '88 as far as I'm informed).

Weather update: a minimum temperature of -8įC is predicted for tonight at De Bilt, NL's main weather station Wink.


Edited by someone_else - January 05 2017 at 02:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 04:18
Yes, I believe it's true, at least to some extent. However, what can be done about it with most of America in denial (its not just Trump/Republicans) and China being the world's factory is something, IMO, that can, sadly, never be rectified. And to be fair, with so many American jobs related to generating some form of pollution and waste, tighter regulations regarding the minimization of green house gases, etc., will just be fodder to send what remaining jobs America has to unregulated countries overseas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emigre80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 06:00
People say "Oh, I'm not a scientist so I can't judge." Well, my husband is a scientist and he can judge. It's real and since the GOP will do everything it can to roll back regulations and get out of global agreements to fix it, we're screwed. By the time the Democrats get back in and start doing anything about it, too much damage will be done and it will be irreversible. The planet will probably last out our lifetimes, but things will be tough for our children and grandchildren. The changes will kill millions, maybe billions, and the people who are left are in for a bad time.
 
Sorry to be the voice of gloom, but it's true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 06:43
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:


People say "Oh, I'm not a scientist so I can't judge." Well, my husband is a scientist and he can judge. It's real and since the GOP will do everything it can to roll back regulations and get out of global agreements to fix it, we're screwed. By the time the Democrats get back in and start doing anything about it, too much damage will be done and it will be irreversible. The planet will probably last out our lifetimes, but things will be tough for our children and grandchildren. The changes will kill millions, maybe billions, and the people who are left are in for a bad time.
Sorry to be the voice of gloom, but it's true.


The planet will last for billions of years to come. The planet surviving is not dependent on us being here. Quite the opposite...but I I know what you mean, and by and large I agree.

If people think the current migration crisis is bad, then just wait until the sea level rises to a point where half of Europe and the east coast of the US is under water. People will then start jumping up and down demanding to know why nothing had been done to prevent the crisis.

People depress me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vompatti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 08:02
All environmental problems are caused by overpopulation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:44
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

I just voted the wrong way because the question in the actual poll reverses the question in the thread title. Yeah, I didn't read the poll question, but why do it that way to start with?


Pick your choice:

a) To see if people are paying attention
b) Becuase I have impish qualities
c) Because I have an appreciation for the absurd
d) Because I care far more about what people write and bring to the discussion table here than what they choose in a poll
e) all of the above

The answer is e. And like I said earlier in the thread, "...to be clear the poll and poll question is just a fun accessory to discussion on climate change/ greenhouse warming." It's such a serious and depressing to me issue that I wanted to bring a little fun and humour to the proceedings. I'm very pessimistic when it comes to the future of humanity.

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

All environmental problems are caused by overpopulation.


Something is going to need to happen to limit reproduction, but of course that opens up a long list of ethical quandaries.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 12:00
^^^ Around 1975 Prof John P Holdren (Obama's Science Tzar) co-authored a book called Ecoscience, in which in which he sggested reproduction could be controlled by the selective granting of birthing licenses, and also the introduction of chemicals into the food chain to reduce fertility.
That is probably a more likely approach than temporarily outlawing childbirth. That would be too difficult to police and even more contraversial than what he was suggesting.

Edited by Blacksword - January 05 2017 at 12:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 12:15
Thanks for that, I'll look for the book (I have heard of it). I don't think that the premise of Z.P.G. would be the way that societies would go, and Holdren's premises would be much more likely (very controversial still). Of course China had the one child policy. One of my favourite modern television series dealt with population control, Utopia. I won't give spoilers for those that haven't seen it.



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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - The Face of Evil, Jan 22, 1977).
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