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npjnpj
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Posted: November 24 2019 at 10:12 |
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Edited by npjnpj - November 24 2019 at 10:47
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Sean Trane
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Posted: November 02 2019 at 06:34 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Logan wrote:
I expect that various atheists and theists also have fairly vague conceptions of God. Some would be thinking of an Abrahamic God with a white beard, booming voice, and some anger issues. |
PA has made me laugh out loud twice in one day On a more serious note, the problem most staunch atheists are forced to confront is that it is impossible to prove a negative i.e. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I would consider myself as someone who believes that any human interaction with what might be deemed a transcendental agent is unattainable or simply unknowable. This pussy agnostic is hoping that even Hell has a door policy
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Art I of the Gospell of St-Trane:
God is not the worst invention of man, since it doesn't exist.... However by far the worst and most destructive invention of mankind is religion: the obligation to worship something that doesn't exist.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: November 02 2019 at 01:02 |
Logan wrote:
I expect that various atheists and theists also have fairly vague conceptions of God. Some would be thinking of an Abrahamic God with a white beard, booming voice, and some anger issues. |
PA has made me laugh out loud twice in one day On a more serious note, the problem most staunch atheists are forced to confront is that it is impossible to prove a negative i.e. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I would consider myself as someone who believes that any human interaction with what might be deemed a transcendental agent is unattainable or simply unknowable. This pussy agnostic is hoping that even Hell has a door policy
Edited by ExittheLemming - November 02 2019 at 01:15
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tamijo_II
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Posted: November 02 2019 at 00:42 |
My personal def.: Gods (or sometimes God) was originally a concept that humans created due to their natural fear of the unknown, soon evolved into a disaster of unreal violence and an excuse for them to oppress other humans.
Edited by tamijo_II - November 02 2019 at 00:47
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Same person as this profile: Tamijo
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Logan
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Posted: November 01 2019 at 17:37 |
I'm also an atheist when it comes to "Clapton is God". ;)
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Psychedelic Paul
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Posted: November 01 2019 at 17:35 |
When I saw the title of this thread, I thought you might be talking about Eric Clapton, the only living guitar god.
Edited by Psychedelic Paul - November 01 2019 at 17:38
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Logan
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Posted: November 01 2019 at 17:30 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
There is nothing you can do to offend God. He will not forgive you for anything. He will not punish you for anything. His will is for his wayward children to return home. | If you changed that to, There probably is nothing you can do to offend God. He probably will not forgive you for anything. He probably will not punish you for anything. He probably does not exist, then it would work better for me -- although probably is not the ideal word, as I have no way to calculate any probability when it comes to this. I can't say what is probable, but I see no valid reason to believe in God or accept certain vague notions as God, or infer traits or will on this "whatever" that I don't believe in or define as God. Instead of probably, I'll say that it does not very plausibly seem to exist for me. I could still think of better word....
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Logan
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Posted: November 01 2019 at 16:07 |
I thought this was an interesting topic which I might bump.
I wanted to do another about the persecution of atheists (discrimination against atheists around the world) and special privileges that the religious get, but currently lack the brain power to come up with what I would hope to be an interesting and thought-provoking opening post
By the way, while I am an atheist (I don't claim God that does not exist, but I don't believe a God or Gods exist -- I needn't have certainty), I still feel uncomfortable telling people that I am an atheist.
Edited by Logan - November 01 2019 at 16:13
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2dogs
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Posted: August 02 2019 at 08:19 |
BaldJean wrote:
a very basic belief is that there are no such things as "things". there are no such things as elementary particles, atoms, stones, chairs, bacteria, animals, plants, mushrooms, human beings or whatever |
Well really there's just the same stuff that's been around since the Big Bang. We need to treat it as separate things for practical purposes but yes you don't actually make a chair in the sense of creating one where there was nothing before or transforming something else into "chair-stuff".
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Logan
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 19:59 |
BaldJean wrote:
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless |
I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty. I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty.
One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist. If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. |
Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple
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Yes, but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there were."
Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters, saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief than a belief system. |
no, Logan. this is why I made the example with the tiger. saying that you don't belief in the existence of something only makes sense if you have a clear concept of what that something is supposed to be. if someone says "I don't believe in the existence of tigers" he means "I don't believe in the existence of catlike predatory animals with dark vertical stripes on reddish-orange fur with a lighter underside, with a length of 250-390 cm and a weight of 90-306 kg for males and a length of 200-270 cm and a weight of 65-167 kg for females, depending on subspecies". this is a concept of a tiger most people have.
there are, however, so many different concepts and definitions of "God" that saying "I don't believe in God" is meaningless unless you give a clear definition of what you mean when you speak of "God". saying you don't believe in the existence of something that you have no idea of what it is supposed to be in the first place is simply meaningless, and I consider you to be too intelligent for that
| I don't think one needs a clear conception or familiarity with many conceptions to lack belief in something. It may be meaningless to you, but such lack of belief may not be meaningless to others. I once heard a "non-believer" say something like, "I wish theism would just go away and I wish I didn't ever feel the need to describe myself as not having it." Yes, there are huge number of definitions and conceptions, a great many of which no doubt I am unfamiliar with. I lack belief in that which I don't "know", and I am ignorant of most things. Okay, that could be phrased better from an epistemological perspective. I lack belief in that which I don't believe in would be more precise, if silly sounding. I don't believe that extraterrestrials are visiting Earth, but it is not inconceivable to me and I'm not claiming that there are no ETs around. I'm ultimately agnostic on the matter. If they are around, I also don't know what form they would take, nor do I know if they would have to pay long distance charges when phoning home. I understand your example, but, and perhaps I am being excessively fanciful here, said person might not have that conception of a tiger and be confusing it with something else such as a Triglav (which is a Polynesian God, not that there are many tigers in Polynesia) or a Tiegrrr which is my name for the God of growling ties. "Tiegrrr, tiegrrr turning slight, on the collars of the sprite." Or he or she might be referring to Tony "They're grrreat!" as not real. He might well not have a clear perception of what a tiger is but still not believe in it. I believe in many animals that I could not describe anywhere near as precisely as you have, and I expect that various atheists and theists also have fairly vague conceptions of God. Some would be thinking of an Abrahamic God with a white beard, booming voice, and some anger issues. I hold various conceptions of God, but for it to seem a useful concept/ construct, I won't use the term to mean anything and everything under the sun, erm, unless thinking of the God that is anything and everything under the sun. I was rather enamored with the Spinoza conception of God at one time. When someone told me that she believed in God, I asked, "What God?" Of course most people would have some conception of what they say they don't believe in, which is why I think it clarifies things to say that I lack a belief in Gods, but don't claim that no conceptions of God exist. Perhaps all exist, I don;t believe so, but I wouldn't know. I am a non-theist according to whatever conceptions I have been exposed to and accept. Had I never been exposed or thought about any conceptions of God, I would still not be a theist. There are many things I don't believe in because I have not been convinced, or agreed to the conceptions, and many things must exist that I lack belief in because I've never been exposed to them and have no concept of those at all. God could be defined as anything, but unless someone accepts that definition/ conception, then that person is not a believer. Lack of belief does not require disbelief. I can't speak for every atheist of course, and as said there's spectrum and individuals with different ideas, but when I say that I don't believe in Gods or say that I lack belief in Gods, I simply mean that I do not feel convinced that God exists in any way that I have agreed to the definition/ conceived of. I'm not saying that conceptions aren't important. I doubt that every theist has a clear conception of God. I've heard God described in the most nebulous terms by some deists and in terms where we already have terms to describe the phenomena... like God is nature, or God is the universe. Okay, if you want to call that God, feel free, I'll call it nature and the universe unless the generally accepted terminology changes. Someone who has never heard of or thought about Gods is atheist (without theism) even if they have no conception of a God. That person would not believe in something that he'she has not heard or thought of. Of course said person would not say I do not believe in God as he/she/ze would not have a concept and only explaining what one thinks is a God to that person might said person say, "Oh, interesting concept, I don't believe in that." If one said God is love, then said person might say, "Oh, then I do believe in God". If you said, "God is fried banana", then sad person might say "Sounds yummy, I wold love to eat God". To which you might say, but God is sacred and not for consumption. Who knows? A new religion might spread with eating fried bananas considered heretical. Definitions and concepts matter, but unless one accepts and believes in a God conception (it can be a very loose concept), then you're likely not a theist. One doesn't need to disbelieve not to hold a belief. I have no belief in a god that others have relayed to me or of which I have conceived and accepted.
Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 20:15
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CosmicVibration
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 17:15 |
BaldJean wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
I believe Everything is God. The Universe and the spaces between are God. You and I are parts of God, pretending we're us, contemplating God. Therefore, whatever you say is so...and so it is. | that is part of our believe too. however, a very basic belief is that there are no such things as "things". there are no such things as elementary particles, atoms, stones, chairs, bacteria, animals, plants, mushrooms, human beings or whatever
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Would this be in line with string theory? In that there are no elementary particles,
just a fundamental element that vibrates everything into existence. In essence there is no difference between an
electron and proton in an atom, just a different rate of vibration.
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BaldJean
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 15:54 |
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I actually
don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless |
I
have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that
everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty.
Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are
different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that
there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or
negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/
non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so
then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of
God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief
doesn't require certainty. I don't believe that you are a hirsute
Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to
believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are
that trucker with absolute certainty.
One could define
anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and
I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God
definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote
location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without
knowing the term atheist or theist. If I considered myself to be a
theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I
am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of
theism. |
Logan, to be able to say something does
not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly
does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple
|
Yes,
but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not
need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe
my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief
in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not
be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that
those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have
sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that
no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is
not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into
existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there
were."
Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters,
saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they
just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's
a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief
than a belief system. | no, Logan. this is why I
made the example with the tiger. saying that you don't belief in the
existence of something only makes sense if you have a clear concept of
what that something is supposed to be. if someone says "I don't believe
in the existence of tigers" he means "I don't believe in the existence
of catlike predatory animals with dark vertical stripes on
reddish-orange fur with a lighter underside, with a length of 250-390 cm
and a weight of 90-306 kg for males and a length of 200-270 cm and a
weight of 65-167 kg for females, depending on subspecies". this is a
concept of a tiger most people have.
there are,
however, so many different concepts and definitions of "God" that
saying "I don't believe in God" is meaningless unless you give a clear
definition of what you mean when you speak of "God". saying you don't
believe in the existence of something that you have no idea of what it
is supposed to be in the first place is simply meaningless, and I
consider you to be too intelligent for that
Edited by BaldJean - August 01 2019 at 15:56
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Barbu
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 15:10 |
^ let me join you, dude.
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Argo2112
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 14:49 |
omphaloskepsis wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
you misunderstand. when people think of, for example, a chair, they
think of it occupying some space in their home. but the chair exists in
space-time, not just space. all these so-called "things" are in reality
processes, including this entity called "Jean". with a person this is
obvious, but with for example a chair it is much less obvious because
the involved process is so slow. and the sum of all these processes is
God
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Since I believe you are a process of God that goes by the sound- "Jean", therefore the Jean God Process has spoken of the process of God reality, ergo the process of God birthed an idea on itself. How can the Cindy God Process disagree? |
OK, I'm defiantly going to need those mushrooms now!
Edited by Argo2112 - August 01 2019 at 14:55
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 14:14 |
BaldJean wrote:
you misunderstand. when people think of, for example, a chair, they
think of it occupying some space in their home. but the chair exists in
space-time, not just space. all these so-called "things" are in reality
processes, including this entity called "Jean". with a person this is
obvious, but with for example a chair it is much less obvious because
the involved process is so slow. and the sum of all these processes is
God
|
Since I believe you are a process of God that goes by the sound- "Jean", therefore the Jean God Process has spoken of the process of God reality, ergo the process of God birthed an idea on itself. How can the Cindy God Process disagree?
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Logan
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 14:05 |
BaldJean wrote:
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless |
I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty. I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty.
One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist. If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. |
Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple
| Yes, but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there were." Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters, saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief than a belief system.
Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 14:09
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BaldJean
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 13:44 |
Logan wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless |
I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty. I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty.
One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist. If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. | Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Logan
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 13:35 |
BaldJean wrote:
I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless | I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God Or particular conceptions of God you might say). There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty. I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty. One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept that God definition and therefore be a theist. "Aha, you believe in rocks therefore you must believe in God!" Or God is anything you want it to be or can conceive of... Not that useful to me. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist. If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism.
Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 13:42
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BaldJean
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 13:26 |
Odvin Draoi wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Odvin Draoi wrote:
I'm more of an apatheist, actually. I just am not interested in such concepts. | you mean to say it makes no difference for you if God exists or no?
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Actually, I deliberately was trying to abstain from getting into a discussion about something I don't care.
Yet
now that you asked, I can say that your tiger example is nonsense.
Also, conversely a theist who rejects some particular concepts of theism
by religions etc. are arrogant. As if they didn't get the idea from
them. In Turkish there's a good saying for religious but arrogant
people. A close translation can be like: Do not adapt the book to your
way, adapt the book. So if you're talking about God and stuff, you must
be accepting the original concepts, directly or indirectly.
I
REALLY don't want to discuss on this topic. And don't be offended by
"arrogant" word. You can be as arrogant as you like, towards something
that I don't care about. Peace. | you
have to accept the "original" concept only if you are a member of one of
the religions it exists in, else you disqualify as a member. but there
are many other possible concepts of God.
and the tiger example is anything but nonsense; it demonstrates the point
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Odvin Draoi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 01 2019
Location: X
Status: Offline
Points: 516
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Posted: August 01 2019 at 13:18 |
BaldJean wrote:
Odvin Draoi wrote:
I'm more of an apatheist, actually. I just am not interested in such concepts. | you mean to say it makes no difference for you if God exists or no?
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Actually, I deliberately was trying to abstain from getting into a discussion about something I don't care.
Yet now that you asked, I can say that your tiger example is nonsense. Also, conversely a theist who rejects some particular concepts of theism by religions etc. are arrogant. As if they didn't get the idea from them. In Turkish there's a good saying for religious but arrogant people. A close translation can be like: Do not adapt the book to your way, adapt to the book. So if you're talking about God and stuff, you must be accepting the original concepts, directly or indirectly.
I REALLY don't want to discuss on this topic. And don't be offended by "arrogant" word. You can be as arrogant as you like, towards something that I don't care about. Peace.
Edited by Odvin Draoi - August 01 2019 at 13:23
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