God

BaldJean wrote: omphaloskepsis wrote: I believe Everything is God.  The Universe and the spaces between are God.  You and I are parts of God, pretending we're us, contemplating God.   Therefore, whatever you say is so...and so it is.  that is part of our believe too. however, a very basic belief is that there are no such things as "things". there are no such things as elementary particles, atoms, stones, chairs, bacteria, animals, plants, mushrooms, human beings or whatever

Edited by Argo2112 - August 01 2019 at 11:54

you misunderstand. when people think of, for example, a chair, they think of it occupying some space in their home. but the chair exists in space-time, not just space. all these so-called "things" are in reality processes, including this entity called "Jean". with a person this is obvious, but with for example a chair it is much less obvious because the involved process is so slow. and the sum of all these processes is God

I'm more of an apatheist, actually. I just am not interested in such concepts. 

BaldJean wrote: Odvin Draoi wrote: I'm more of an apatheist, actually. I just am not interested in such concepts.  you mean to say it makes no difference for you if God exists or no?

Edited by Odvin Draoi - August 01 2019 at 13:23

BaldJean wrote: I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless

I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God Or particular conceptions of God you might say). There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty.   I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty.

One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept that God definition and therefore be a theist. "Aha, you believe in rocks therefore you must believe in God!" Or God is anything you want it to be or can conceive of... Not that useful to me. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist.   If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism.

Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 13:42

BaldJean wrote: Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty.   I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty. One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist.   If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple

Yes, but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there were."

Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters, saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief than a belief system.

Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 14:09

omphaloskepsis wrote: BaldJean wrote: you misunderstand. when people think of, for example, a chair, they think of it occupying some space in their home. but the chair exists in space-time, not just space. all these so-called "things" are in reality processes, including this entity called "Jean". with a person this is obvious, but with for example a chair it is much less obvious because the involved process is so slow. and the sum of all these processes is God   Since I believe you are a process of God that goes by the sound- "Jean", therefore the Jean God Process has spoken of the process of God reality,  ergo the process of God birthed an idea on itself.  How can the Cindy God Process disagree?

Edited by Argo2112 - August 01 2019 at 14:55

Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty.   I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty. One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist.   If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple Yes, but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there were." Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters, saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief than a belief system.

BaldJean wrote: Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: I actually don't believe there are any real atheists. atheists don't deny God, they deny a certain concept of God (usually the concept of the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faith). that's why my first question to an atheist is always what his concept of God is. I have actually even heard stupid answers like "I don't need a concept; he doesn't exist". that's about the same as denying the existence of, for example, tigers. if you don't have a concept of what a tiger is it might be a nice fluffy rodent fitting into your hand, and the statement "tigers don't exist" becomes absolutely meaningless I have a different take. Atheism means without theism, and to claim that everyone is a theist would be wrong, I say with reasonable certainty. Atheists need not deny any God not to believe in God. There are different types of atheists. The hard/ positive atheist claims that there is no God, the soft atheist (sometimes called agnostic atheism or negative atheism) need not make any claim about the existence/ non-existence of God, but simply doesn't believe in a God or gods, so then it is not an affirmative belief about God/ the non-existence of God. There are many things I don't believe in, but that non-belief doesn't require certainty.   I don't believe that you are a hirsute Trump-loving trucker living in Nebraska, and in fact I have evidence to believe otherwise, but I would not hold such non-belief that you are that trucker with absolute certainty. One could define anything as God, but just because someone claimed that God is a rock and I believe in rocks does not mean that I would accept your God definition and therefore be a theist. Someone might grow up in a remote location with no conception of a God or Gods and be atheistic without knowing the term atheist or theist.   If I considered myself to be a theist, I would want some conception of God to support my belief that I am a theist. As it is, as an atheist, I'm content in my lack of theism. Logan, to be able to say something does not exist you first have to define what this thing is that supposedly does not exist, else the statement is meaningless. it is that simple Yes, but I'm not claiming that something doesn't exist, and atheists do not need to. If you don't believe that God exists, you're an atheist. Maybe my point would be better understood if I say that it is a lack of belief in Gods (I don't believe that which I lack belief in), which need not be positive negation, and that does not require certainty or saying that those who believe in Gods are wrong. I don't feel like I have sufficient reason to believe in a God. Its a non-belief not a claim that no Gods exist. I lack confidence that Gods exist therefore theism is not part of my belief system. That said, I could define Gods into existence if I chose to. And Logan said, "Let there be Gods, and there were." Some people use atheism with very narrow parameters, saying that atheists must believe in the non-existence of God, no they just need to lack a belief/ confidence in the existence of Gods. There's a spectrum of atheism. My atheism is better thought of as non-belief than a belief system. no, Logan. this is why I made the example with the tiger. saying that you don't belief in the existence of something only makes sense if you have a clear concept of what that something is supposed to be. if someone says "I don't believe in the existence of tigers" he means "I don't believe in the existence of catlike predatory animals with dark vertical stripes on reddish-orange fur with a lighter underside, with a length of 250-390 cm and a weight of 90-306 kg for males and a length of 200-270 cm and a weight of 65-167 kg for females, depending on subspecies". this is a concept of a tiger most people have. there are, however, so many different concepts and definitions of "God" that saying "I don't believe in God" is meaningless unless you give a clear definition of what you mean when you speak of "God". saying you don't believe in the existence of something that you have no idea of what it is supposed to be in the first place is simply meaningless, and I consider you to be too intelligent for that

I don't think one needs a clear conception or familiarity with many conceptions to lack belief in something. It may be meaningless to you, but such lack of belief may not be meaningless to others. I once heard a "non-believer" say something like, "I wish theism would just go away and I wish I didn't ever feel the need to describe myself as not having it."

Yes, there are huge number of definitions and conceptions, a great many of which no doubt I am unfamiliar with. I lack belief in that which I don't "know", and I am ignorant of most things. Okay, that could be phrased better from an epistemological perspective.   I lack belief in that which I don't believe in would be more precise, if silly sounding.

I don't believe that extraterrestrials are visiting Earth, but it is not inconceivable to me and I'm not claiming that there are no ETs around. I'm ultimately agnostic on the matter. If they are around, I also don't know what form they would take, nor do I know if they would have to pay long distance charges when phoning home.

I understand your example, but, and perhaps I am being excessively fanciful here, said person might not have that conception of a tiger and be confusing it with something else such as a Triglav (which is a Polynesian God, not that there are many tigers in Polynesia) or a Tiegrrr which is my name for the God of growling ties. "Tiegrrr, tiegrrr turning slight, on the collars of the sprite."   Or he or she might be referring to Tony "They're grrreat!" as not real. He might well not have a clear perception of what a tiger is but still not believe in it. I believe in many animals that I could not describe anywhere near as precisely as you have, and I expect that various atheists and theists also have fairly vague conceptions of God. Some would be thinking of an Abrahamic God with a white beard, booming voice, and some anger issues. I hold various conceptions of God, but for it to seem a useful concept/ construct, I won't use the term to mean anything and everything under the sun, erm, unless thinking of the God that is anything and everything under the sun. I was rather enamored with the Spinoza conception of God at one time.

When someone told me that she believed in God, I asked, "What God?" Of course most people would have some conception of what they say they don't believe in, which is why I think it clarifies things to say that I lack a belief in Gods, but don't claim that no conceptions of God exist. Perhaps all exist, I don;t believe so, but I wouldn't know. I am a non-theist according to whatever conceptions I have been exposed to and accept. Had I never been exposed or thought about any conceptions of God, I would still not be a theist.

There are many things I don't believe in because I have not been convinced, or agreed to the conceptions, and many things must exist that I lack belief in because I've never been exposed to them and have no concept of those at all.

God could be defined as anything, but unless someone accepts that definition/ conception, then that person is not a believer. Lack of belief does not require disbelief. I can't speak for every atheist of course, and as said there's spectrum and individuals with different ideas, but when I say that I don't believe in Gods or say that I lack belief in Gods, I simply mean that I do not feel convinced that God exists in any way that I have agreed to the definition/ conceived of. I'm not saying that conceptions aren't important. I doubt that every theist has a clear conception of God. I've heard God described in the most nebulous terms by some deists and in terms where we already have terms to describe the phenomena... like God is nature, or God is the universe. Okay, if you want to call that God, feel free, I'll call it nature and the universe unless the generally accepted terminology changes.

Someone who has never heard of or thought about Gods is atheist (without theism) even if they have no conception of a God. That person would not believe in something that he'she has not heard or thought of.   Of course said person would not say I do not believe in God as he/she/ze would not have a concept and only explaining what one thinks is a God to that person might said person say, "Oh, interesting concept, I don't believe in that." If one said God is love, then said person might say, "Oh, then I do believe in God". If you said, "God is fried banana", then sad person might say "Sounds yummy, I wold love to eat God". To which you might say, but God is sacred and not for consumption. Who knows? A new religion might spread with eating fried bananas considered heretical.

Definitions and concepts matter, but unless one accepts and believes in a God conception (it can be a very loose concept), then you're likely not a theist. One doesn't need to disbelieve not to hold a belief. I have no belief in a god that others have relayed to me or of which I have conceived and accepted.

Edited by Logan - August 01 2019 at 20:15