| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
condor 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 24 2005
Location: Norwich
Status: Offline
Points: 1069
|
 Topic: Unenjoyable but important
Posted: October 21 2017 at 12:39 |
Trying to balance pure classical and classical inspired, I decided to branch out from Yes and KC, I started listening to Tarkus.
A thought came into my head, this is unenjoyable, but a stronger thought said, this is important. It seemed to resemble, like plight from a holy cause.
Anyone ever had a similar experience: unenjoyable but important?
Does non-classical music, in the strict sense, have room for such music?
|
 |
AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 16199
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 13:13 |
|
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I suppose though, if I am understanding what you are saying, not all prog is going to appeal to everyone. Some of those early to mid seventies King Crimson albums are not enjoyable to some fans and ditto Van der Graaf Generator's "pawn hearts" or Magma's "mekanik destruktwi Kommandoh" but they are all still very important to the prog genre.
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 15:20 |
|
Maybe he means that that the music has a sense of 'occasion'. ELP were very pompous of course but could make anything sound important hence why they were much better as a live band. Studio wise they can come across as cold perhaps. Not intending to turn this into yet another ELP discussion but just trying to get to the nub of the OP.
|
|
Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 15:25 |
|
You don't like it but respect the fact of being "historically" significant, is that what you mean?
Edited by Quinino - October 21 2017 at 15:25
|
|
Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 15:33 |
|
Both "important" and "enjoyable" have limited appeal to me as categories for music.
"Important" is too impersonal and unemotional (obviously one can discuss historical significance and influence but this can rarely be judged from the music in question on its own); there's nothing wrong with being "enjoyable" but much of the best music touches me in very different ways.
|
|
condor
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 24 2005
Location: Norwich
Status: Offline
Points: 1069
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 16:43 |
 Quinino wrote:
You don't like it but respect the fact of being "historically" significant, is that what you mean?
|
Yes. I had multiple meanings, so found it hard to choose.
|
|
ForestFriend
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2017
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 680
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 17:17 |
|
I think there's a value in giving music a chance. With an album like Tarkus that's well-known and relatively well-received, I think it's good to listen to it and try to see what the appeal in the album is. Plus, you might not necessarily like the start of the album, but, especially with prog rock, things tend to change and you might find that you really enjoy a section in the middle or end of a piece.
That being said, if you've given it a chance and you really don't like it, I don't see much reason in listening to it over and over again to force yourself to enjoy it because everyone else says it's good.
|
|
|
|
Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6393
|
Posted: October 21 2017 at 19:46 |
|
There is no need to force yourself to listen to something you do not enjoy, but if a work is considered important I think it is worth a listen or two. At least try to figure out what is going on. Not all listeners are musicians and there are differences of experience between the two. I usually give something called important a few listens (but am known to dismiss something out of hand if I find it neither enjoyable nor interesting). If I don't get it by then, I most likely never will.
|
|
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
|
|
Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 05:02 |
|
Art forms are ever evolving and buildup on predecessors for progressing - so makes all sense from a perspective of self enlightenment to get acquainted with certain steps of that evolution which, in spite of not being our preferred cup-of-tea, permit our understanding (and fruition) of what came after (and maybe better suited our personal tastes).
|
|
Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12389
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 07:52 |
|
I guess there are some important albums I do not really enjoy. When it comes to personal taste, you enjoy what you like, even though the whole world might be against you, and many albums, though were quite important, in the sense that they made a mark in the history and direction of music, might or might not be to your personal taste. Being a subject matter, it is quite hard to define your personal taste, but the importance of an album, the influence it had/has, the popularity of it, the amount of people who discovered progressive music because of it, is a historical fact.
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16164
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 08:07 |
condor wrote:
Trying to balance pure classical and classical inspired, I decided to branch out from Yes and KC, I started listening to Tarkus.
A thought came into my head, this is unenjoyable, but a stronger thought said, this is important. It seemed to resemble, like plight from a holy cause.
Anyone ever had a similar experience: unenjoyable but important?
Does non-classical music, in the strict sense, have room for such music? |
Hi,
If you want to see how impressive and important Keith Emerson/ELP stuff really is, try listening to Rachel Flowers do piano and/or organ versions of some of his work, and even a piano concerto.
We do not think of rock music, or ELP, as any kind of classical music, but when you listen to what she does with it, immediately you find that ... wow ... this is very good stuff, and beautifully composed.
It is a sad thing, that many of the rock pieces are not seen, or shown as the great pipeces of composition that they are, specially in a place where folks have a tendency to only compare music to other rock songs, and completely miss the underlying inspiration and what brought some of that music forth.
I, usually, consider, Vangelis, Mike Oldfield, Ryuichi Sakamoto, or Jean Michel Jarre, the great composers in music of our time, but when you listen to Rachel do Keith's stuff, it adds a dimension that is rarely seen or heard anywhere ... and the turkey guy, here in Portland's Symphony, thinks its all just a rock song and not important music. He really does not know what he is missing, and how much of an audience he will never get because of his idiocy!
Some other pieces that I consider "classical" within the rock context:
Tales from Topographic Oceans rivals any Symphony by any of the great composers in music history in my book.
Ommadawn
Thick as a Brick
Tarkus
Hamburger Concerto
Just for starters, off the top of my head ... the only problem being that most rock fans do not always show the complete appreciation for music history, that would show how valuable some of these pieces. And there are so many of them out there, it's not funny at all.
It's also possible that the advent of "lyrics" tends to throw people off, and the music appreciation society thinks that the music behind it is not as important as the lyrics and the way they are presented. In the end, Opera, has had a very long life, even though in the late 20th century and the early 21st century it is being killed by folks that think that the singing is not in tune with rock music.
I'm waiting for a rock version of Turandot, or Tosca, or Verdi, for example, but I doubt I will ever see/hear this in my lifetime. It will change how classical music is looked at, FINALLY.
Edited by moshkito - October 22 2017 at 08:16
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 7955
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 09:02 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I suppose though, if I am understanding what you are saying, not all prog is going to appeal to everyone. Some of those early to mid seventies King Crimson albums are not enjoyable to some fans and ditto Van der Graaf Generator's "pawn hearts" or Magma's "mekanik destruktwi Kommandoh" but they are all still very important to the prog genre. |
This^
|
|
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16164
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 13:49 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I suppose though, if I am understanding what you are saying, not all prog is going to appeal to everyone. Some of those early to mid seventies King Crimson albums are not enjoyable to some fans and ditto Van der Graaf Generator's "pawn hearts" or Magma's "mekanik destruktwi Kommandoh" but they are all still very important to the prog genre. |
I question this completely, and what it is trying to say.
It is true that many composers got booed for their new pieces, and we can go back to Mozart for many pieces that many folks didn't like because the notes were all wrong. Or Debussy, Stravinsky, Ravel and many others get booed.
However, all that is telling us, is that we have a sort of bad reaction to something that is completely different and so "harsh", to the stuff they are used to listen to. And this is the case in rock/pop music, when folks thing (EVEN HERE!!!!) that because it sells and gets favorable opinions in a top ten poll, that it must be good, and generally speaking many folks have not even heard 3 or 4 or 5 of the other things in the poll, and that makes for a very bad idea of what the piece really is, and the others, supposedly, are not!
We have to look at history, not in terms of the "genre" ... heck, Stravinsky was almost 100 years ago, and no one in rock music can create anything like it, yet! They can noise it up, good and try! But that's loudness, not composition!
TIME is a huge leveler to the quality and clarity of a piece of music, and this is where VdGG and Peter Hammill have excelled ... it was not a flash in the pan ... their amount of work has stood up really well for almost 50 years ... the same with King Crimson ... despite both not being exactly a "fan favorite", although these days, it's hip to like them!
People said the same thing about Picasso, when he took a picture of the streets of Madrid in his famous painting "Guernica". And we thought it was horrible ... funny, we didn't bother taking a look at the streets and see the Spanish savagery in full tow, and now they are looking to do the same thing in Catalan! Everyone laughed and thought how silly and stupid, when Bunuel and Dali did their two films ... and today, people look at those in film class, and tell you what a great example of the decaying of the human mind and perception those films were, and Dali paintings displayed for us, for many years, and Bunuel continued the same themes in film.
And no one ... stood up for the huge scream in "Le Phantome de la Liberte" ... with a Goya frozen in your screen. The only thing reviewers and people said was how stupid and weird the film was ... not a thing about its true message ... like Doris Lessing ... in a country with the greatest gifts and freedoms, no one knows what it means and how to use it!
I can not tell you how important it is to recognize the different things ... immediately. They might not be as big as some of these examples, but they are very important in the understanding of what our society is all about ... and we see many of these ... listed here ... but all we care about is the new hit song, and the new "it" album.
The history of all music, including what we consider "progressive" is all important ... and separating one piece from the other, is a way to not being able to see the rest of the world for what it is ... vast, inclusive, different ... and it all could be gone in a second ... do we use that second or just let it slide?
Yeah, sure ... let it all die, simply because it has to be "progressive".
Sad.
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654
|
Posted: October 22 2017 at 14:39 |
|
^ Actually Picasso did represent the bombing of Guernikara, a basque town victim of the dictator Franco repression during the Spanish civil war.
Just to be precise...sorry to interrupt.
|
|
omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 5908
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 06:29 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I suppose though, if I am understanding what you are saying, not all prog is going to appeal to everyone. Some of those early to mid seventies King Crimson albums are not enjoyable to some fans and ditto Van der Graaf Generator's "pawn hearts" or Magma's "mekanik destruktwi Kommandoh" but they are all still very important to the prog genre. |
A Flower King Crimson said exactly what I think. However, I saw King Crimson this weekend and they were immensely enjoyable!
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 19621
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 08:59 |
condor wrote:
Quinino wrote:
You don't like it but respect the fact of being "historically" significant, is that what you mean?
|
Yes. I had multiple meanings, so found it hard to choose. |
Something I mentioned a fair amount of time in my reviews
|
|
Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 09:07 |
^ And you deserve the credit for it, Hughes  - I guess our friend OP is just starting to get the feel of it 
|
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 09:16 |
|
"Historically significant" according to what authority? I've never understood the grounds for an album or work being labeled as essential if the person listening to it just doesn't like it. It's the same as something being labeled "an acquired taste." If you have to bend and stoop to acquire a taste, it just doesn't seem to be worth the effort.
Edited by SteveG - October 23 2017 at 09:37
|
|
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
|
Quinino
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 09:50 |
|
^ The best pleasures in life don't come easy - doesn't mean you have to suffer displeasure for a senseless "higher meaning" , especially when it comes to music I would add.
But if some form of art is significant (whatever "authority" says so - it may simply be a friend's better informed opinion) one will probably lose an opportunity if not persevering after the first negative impression.
|
|
Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: @ wicker man
Status: Offline
Points: 32690
|
Posted: October 23 2017 at 10:14 |
|
I recognise that music (be it classical, Prog, punk, rap or whatever) and other things can be significant without being enjoyable for me (objective vs. subjective merits) in its particular study/ field. Especially if one takes a scholarly interest in something then delving into that which may be displeasing can be a useful, educational and sometimes necessary activity. As I'm not a music scholar, composer or much of a musician, nor a Progtologist, the significance from a historical perspective and in terms of influence, learning from techniques etc. may not be as important to me as many others. I have had many academic interests where I've delved into particular aspects and elements of a discipline, as well as subjects that relate to it, that I have found quite tedious but useful or even necessary for a better understanding of the overall subject.
Actually, even for my time and usefulness here, I found delving into music in ProgArchives that I did not enjoy useful for gaining a better understanding of and gave more perspective on the categories and musical developments in the greater Prog scenes. I don't particularly enjoy ELP, and Tarkus specifically, but I recognise that ELP and that particular album is important to Prog. Do I think that, say, Beethoven's 9th is more important from a general music perspective? Absolutely. Do I also enjoy it more? Absolutely.
|
|
Just a fanboy passin' through.
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Unenjoyable but important