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Immediate Ruination of New Music?
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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 22 2018 at 07:47
Imagine you've just read a review of a band you've never heard before.  The description sounds intriguing, and you have every reason to believe that you will like it.  So you cruise on over to YouTube, Bandcamp, Amazon, CD Baby, or the band's website to listen to some samples.  The first piece you listen to starts off well, and you're getting into it.  "This is great stuff!" you think.  Then something happens that makes you go "Ugh!, they just ruined it for me!".  What was that?  What is your big turn-off that makes you immediately reject new music?

For me, it's the appearance of gratuitous, mediocre vocals.  If a piece starts off with nice proggy instrumentation, then all of a sudden, someone decides they have to open their mouths and sing, as if it is "required", and their vocals are just ho-hum, mediocre (even thought the singer thinks they are the greatest vocalist in the history of the universe).

There are other characteristics in music that I don't care for, but the appearance of those dad-blasted unnecessary vocals will send me reaching for the reject button faster than anything else!  Immediate ruination!

You?
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Hi,

I find this strange. Mostly because something of the nature that you speak, is not about the "art" of it all, the band and the individuals, but about your "likes" and "dislikes".

It does not matter who the artist is, let's say Picasso, with 1001 paintings, and you and I both will say that that one is crap, and that one ... you call that a painting? ... and so on, but in the end, IN ITS TOTALITY, you can sit there, and eventually say ... got to admit, not my preference, but one heck of an artist and he did a lot.

I think, sometimes, that we are too far apart from the music and these bands, and we do not understand them. You should have heard the wording about Gentle Giant in 1972, 1973 and such, when around my roomate and friend, there were people saying things like ... that's horrible vocals ... because they wanted to hear rock'n'roll lyrics and not some supposedly Rabelais'ian piece with modern school vocals that rock STILL has not used or worked with well enough for people to get more familiar with extremely different things in music. And rock music is the simplest form, and the one that has expanded the least from a point of view of possibilities and comparatively speaking to other arts!

I'm sure that many people did the same thing to Stravinsky. Or Bartok. Or Orff (specially his lyrics for Carmina Burana ... go check those out! That's why your symphony, or rock band, will never do it, btw!

Of the 2K CD's I have, and still 1500 LP's and going back to the beginning of my psychedelic/weird/off kilter/crazy/weird/experimental collection, there are a lot of things that you can shake your head at, be it Roy Harper standing there on the loo, or Kevin Ayers throwing up in the kitchen, or RW/RG doing their song, but all in all, for me, it is just a part of life and the one thing that no one got in the White Album when John and Paul just walked down the street with the microphone turned on, and every one thought it was just crap!

It wasn't crap ... it was life!

Now, lyrics I might agree with you, since I'm not exactly one to like vapid and vacuous rock music lyrics that supposedly mean something and in the end, they don't. I won't even discuss LZ because they are everyone's lyrical darling and best example of what "lyrics" are supposed to be like ... but I like the differences and the wild ones. AD2 is wild with lyrics. Banco's singing is an acquired taste that eventually just melts in your heart. Ange in their early days (up to Tome VI), was the same and very theatrical, something that only Peter Hammill can do well, and everyone else wonders how can he do that? It's not about the doing that ... it's the context that it is set next to that specifies the strength of the whole thing.

But really, since you and I are not doing it, why are we being critical about someone else doing it? Would you enjoy that comment?


Edited by moshkito - March 22 2018 at 08:33
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I have heard some new prog bands where I haven't liked the vocals but then what you consider to be "ho-hum" vocals may be brilliant to someone else. You can't expect a band not to post their music just in case someone doesn't like the vocals.
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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

I have heard some new prog bands where I haven't liked the vocals but then what you consider to be "ho-hum" vocals may be brilliant to someone else. You can't expect a band not to post their music just in case someone doesn't like the vocals.


I never said that.  All I am saying is there is music I like, and music I dislike. And I pointed out one of the main reasons why I dislike something.  I made NO comment about whether the music was good, bad, or otherwise.  Simply that "I" dislike it.  You may love it.  Great!  Buy it and listen to it.

Aren't there features of music that you dislike?  And upon hearing them in something new, you quickly dismiss it move on to something else?  Or do you force yourself to keep listening, even though it is grating on your nerves?
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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

But really, since you and I are not doing it, why are we being critical about someone else doing it? Would you enjoy that comment?


Being a practitioner of an art is not a requirement for liking or disliking someone else's output.
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Points: 308 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hieronymous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2018 at 10:15
I try to be positive rather than negative, but I actually think this is interesting and I appreciate that you recognize that this is about subjective like/dislike vs. the objective good/bad that is so common.

I'm with you - mediocre vocals/lyrics definitely ruin some music for me. In my experience it's been with '70s jazz/rock fusion. For instance, post-Al Di Meola Return to Forever, or some of the solo albums of the classic fusion musicians. 

But I try not to limit myself to my first impression - it can take a few listens to get used to.
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As I've grown older, things like this don't bother me as much as they used to. If there is something good in the song, I can overlook a sub-par vocal performance or sub-par lyrics (which I'm certain I'm guilty of in my own music). I will admit that I'm still having a hard time with growling vocals, though I did like how they were done in Ayreon's song Cosmic Fusion off of the Into the Electric Castle album.
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Criticism can be useful for the critiqued if they are open to it, but this is about personal experience when it comes to music. I have experienced that "ruination" when I was expecting good things, it stated off to my liking, then it turned into something not to my tastes. Has been no big deal I just moved on as it's hardly ever happened with music that I've purchased -- more with youtube, myspace, soundcloud, bandcamp etc. After a promising and intriguing beginning, often the song has shifted and settled into AORish territory with this slower, more drawn-out part that I found off-putting -- commonly in the vocals and also commonly with a type of smooth, melodic electric guitar style. I think a lot of melodic proggy rock bands might start out with something that sounds more classically and frenetically Prog, then move into this ballady, commercial sounding section. In some of those cases, I'd rather they drop the proggy flourishes and pretensions and just do melodic rock. I sometimes feel with such music that it's trying to be Prog whereas it's heart is in melodic "AOR" rock. Usually with those kinds of bands, I don't like how they start either, but it has happened that I was fooled by what I thought an interesting instrumental intro before it morphed into a style that I don't like. I do value eclecticism in music, so often a part that I don't automatically like and takes me out of the music I will accept and move through, but I often accept it more easily when I get the sense that they will be experimental.

Also, I've heard some quite amateur bands that seemed to me to start off really well, but then the vocalist I found so pitchy and cringe-worthy that I would just feel embarrassed for him or her (mostly hims), especially when seen live at some bar or outdoors event. ^ And also, growls coming in have ruined some music for me too.

Edited by Logan - March 22 2018 at 10:20
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Bad vocals, or mediocre, will indeed ruin a piece of music for me, so are the metal riffs and monotone guitar solos.

Edited by Manuel - March 22 2018 at 12:24
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Sterilized production.

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I grow up listening to American folk so duff vocals don't bother me. What does? A song that just doesn't move me.
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I'm just not moved, and it's not just music of "today" but since my birth (1982), horrible production, bad vocals, etc etc... The thing is, I've always tried to find something "new" just so I could look forward to a new album, or a concert.

Even when I find a song on here that I like, when I finally look into it, it's always from the 60s and 70s, and when I heard stuff I don't like, they seem to have been made in the last 30 years.

Just the way it is.. Fortunately, because of YouTube, I can stay away from that junk... I almost feel as strongly about music and comedy.


Edited by MortSahlFan - March 22 2018 at 14:30
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Cookie Monster Vocals.  Can't stand 'em.  The rest of the work has to be stellar for me to overlook them.
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

But really, since you and I are not doing it, why are we being critical about someone else doing it? Would you enjoy that comment?


Being a practitioner of an art is not a requirement for liking or disliking someone else's output.

For an artist, IT IS!

You will never be anyone that matters, other than collecting a few dollars here and there, if all you do is pay attention to everyone else's output. First of all, none of it agrees with anything. Second of all, these comments would be so far apart and weird that you could not possibly understand them. Third of all, you will be OK today, and tomorrow you will be sh*t because they now like someone else.

NOT being a practitioner of the art, does NOT make you qualified to judge it. You can choose not to buy it, but just sitting up and stating that it is bad, and then saying that someone else is better, because you like it, is not quite a very good objective concept or idea about the music that you are discussing.

And the majority of the history of the arts, is about people that went against the grain, because they were told they could not do it, and weren't good enough ... you really ought to read some of the early stuff about the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks and the shakers and movers that helped bring all of the music that we listen to today. From "you call that music?" to "they will never amount to anything", to "just another kitchen band", to "how can anyone enjoy that loud crap?", even going so far as to having Elvis legs never show on a TV spot whatsoever, because it was suggestive and this and that and this and that at the time.

The internet, has destroyed the "ruination of new music", and my hope is that the artists that do it, get stronger and stronger and better for it, regardless of what you and I like, or think! Or any board out there says. You can not be FAUST and goof around with toys and special effects that is so appreciated 20/30 years later, because at the time the ears were not tuned to it, and its potential. The late 60's were full of artists experimenting with voice in theater and film, to the point that rock music finally took it on ... but no one wants to even take a look at the experimental theater at the time to realize this. 

It didn't ruin anything new ... much of it disappeared ... few today have any idea of what THE LIVING THEATER was really all about, and how it affected so much music and arts out there ... but its soul and source did not disappear ... it is alive and well in so much music yesterday and today, and in other arts. It was experimentation in theater in the 50's that gave us the American greats and the British greats, and the same thing happened in music ... it did not get ruined. The black music may have died a bit, but by the middle and late 60's it has exploded and when you saw Michael Jackson 10 years later, you saw a 50/50 mix in the audience, STILL the only such mix these days!

Either that, or we are back to ... what was it ... schlagger ... or something like it? I hope that never happens to our beloved "progressive music" because it is not something that "we" like, or "dislike". Or worse, that the government thinks it does not represent the will ... errrrr .... are you ready? ... of the people!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


NOT being a practitioner of the art, does NOT make you qualified to judge it. (Rest of the rant deleted)


Wow, re-read my post, dude!  I said "like" or "dislike".  That is everyone's prerogative.  I made no judgement about anything.  You definitely missed the point of my post.
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Pedro likes coming on and making comments about what it means to be an artist. 

Except he doesn't play.

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Someone may have have their own agenda irregardless of your point/ intent and seem to lack reading comprehension. It can be very frustrating.
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^ Thank you Davesax1965 and Logan for pointing out to me what's going on behind the rhetoric!
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Definitely the vocals are a huge deciding factor for me. I'd describe it as disliking clones though--I dislike people trying, or even managing, to sound like other people. Not a big fan of Tesseract, the newest vocalist of Intronaut, early Marillion and others for this reason. Hell, I'd be happy with poorly done vocals so long as the singer sounds unique.
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I am not so fussy over singing style or singing voice, though certain lyrical contents can irk me - If the music is strong enough you can ignore the voice and let it blend into the track. Phil Collins with Genesis is an example of this - though "More Fool Me" is fecking awful....
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