The court of the crims&#111;n king

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Topic: The court of the crimson king
Posted: May 09 2018 at 14:48

Just finished listening to RED and ISLANDS also LARKS IN TONGUES ASPIC although all the albums ,i previously mentioned, i return to the debut ,i think sub consciously THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING just rates some much higher for me because of the range of talent there ,just has too many moments of musical finesse that i just find awesome ,i have looked for comparisons, in other works or songs like STARLESS ,A SAILORS TALE and A BOOK OF SATURDAYS to name a few but for the record as a whole THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING is just unparalleled also i would like to say that it was not,my first crimson album it was in fact THE WAKE OF THE POSEIDON , go figure p.s thank you for taking the time to read, not saying the other works by crim are weak not at all,the debut has everything most people who like prog like, any other suggestions or i.e bands or albums that have all the elements in them i.e mellotron keyboards flutes and double necked guitars also incredible vocal sty lings i.e PETER HAMILL ,JON ANDERSON i would really like know some of your tastes out there, thank you grant

Edited by grantman - May 09 2018 at 14:51

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 15:31

grantman wrote:

Just finished listening to RED and ISLANDS also LARKS IN TONGUES ASPIC although all the albums ,i previously mentioned, i return to the debut ,i think sub consciously THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING just rates some much higher for me because of the range of talent there ,just has too many moments of musical finesse that i just find awesome ,i have looked for comparisons, in other works or songs like STARLESS ,A SAILORS TALE and A BOOK OF SATURDAYS to name a few but for the record as a whole THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING is just unparalleled also i would like to say that it was not,my first crimson album it was in fact THE WAKE OF THE POSEIDON , go figure p.s thank you for taking the time to read, not saying the other works by crim are weak not at all,the debut has everything most people who like prog like, any other suggestions or i.e bands or albums that have all the elements in them i.e mellotron keyboards flutes and double necked guitars also incredible vocal sty lings i.e PETER HAMILL ,JON ANDERSON i would really like know some of your tastes out there, thank you grant

I don't know if I should agree with you or not because I have no idea what exactly you mean by "unparalleled". can you please elaborate on that?

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 15:56

^^ As Morpheus said to Neo. "I know exactly what you mean."

ITCOTCK is a very very special record.....and I have been listening to it since the spring of 1970...a little while after it was released. I really like Red, Larks, Poseidon, etc...but there is an early magical quality about that album which is why it;s rated so high and why so many believe it is a benchmark for early prog.

KC is probably my favorite prog band though I also love Yes and Genesis....but Court is still after all this time that one that I return to when I need a shot of prog magic.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 16:13

I consider "Lizard" to be much better than "ITCOTCK". I actually wonder why "ITCOTCK" is so highly rated when one fourth of the album is considered to be utter crap by many

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 17:02

Itchycock is neither their best nor a masterpiece (although it has some masterpiece content). I think In the Wake of Poseidon is an improvement and Islands is their best. Nevertheless this album is an unevitable milestone in the history of prog.

Edited by someone_else - May 09 2018 at 17:03

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 17:04

Thanks but everyone has a different opinion personally i did not like lizard except LADY OF THE DANCING WATER but as i said not many crimson fans would agree with me that,s fine with me was just actually wondering about other bands and tastes of fans of prog rock

Edited by grantman - May 09 2018 at 17:05

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 17:11

^There really isn't anything that sounds quite like ITCOTCK... and I have been looking for 40 years... ;)

I can recommend Wobbler's last two albums though people say they sound more like Yes at times...I think there is also KC influence.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 17:11

someone_else wrote:

Itchycock is neither their best nor a masterpiece (although it has some masterpiece content). I think In the Wake of Poseidon is an improvement and Islands is their best. Nevertheless this album is an unevitable milestone in the history of prog.

I think the album is way overrated in this regard; I even wrote a post about why once; maybe I can find it

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 17:16

Regarding KC albums...ITCOTCK has the highest rating here , Red next, then... Larks ...Lizard...Starless ....Wake.......ahem...then Islands.

Yes...this whole thing is so damn subjective.....it makes one want to cry at times.

;)o

Edited by dr wu23 - May 09 2018 at 17:22

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 18:42

Not as good as THRAK but close.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 18:58

ah, I found my post about "ITCOTCK". this is what I wrote in it:

"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".

that being said let's have a closer look at ITCOTCK track by track:

"21st Century Schizoid Man" has all the trademarks we expect from a prog song, even if it keeps the traditional song structure. there are unusual time signatures and lots of complicated stuff going on. conclusion: a full-fledged prog song.

"I Talk to the Wind" is most definitely a pop song. a beautiful one with a nice instrumental midsection, but nevertheless a pop song. not prog at all

"Epitaph" really is a tearjerker sung by a crooner, including the funeral march in the middle. the heavy use of mellotron only serves to emphasize the tearjerker qualities of that song. not prog at all.

"Moonchild" can be divided into two parts, a song part and an experimental part that hardly anyone listens to; it is usually skipped (not by me though). what is being done in the instrumental section is in my opinion trying to express the song lyrics word for word with instruments only, and it succeeds in this regard. this second part is highly prog; the first part however is a simple pop song. verdict: prog, but since the second part is skipped by most people this has to be taken with a grain of salt. the first part is not prog at all.

"In the Court of the Crimson King". this song has all the hallmarks of true prog, though it has to be noted that this song still more or less keeps the traditional song structure.

so what do we have in the whole? a pop song, a tearjerker, two prog songs and one half-and-half (which taken as a whole has to be considered fully prog). now decide for yourself: is that enough to make up a full-fledged prog album?

oh, and so you don't get me wrong: I like the album very much, and all of it, including "Moonchild". I just don't think it's status as "first full-fledged prog album" is justified. and don't forget the statement I made in the second sentence of this post.

I am completely aware that this post is extremely heretical, and I fully expect to be subjected to the Spanish inquisition for it

that's my five cents about the album. and no, I don't want to start another discussion; I just want to point out that there can be different opinions about the album. and I really like it; what I don't like is all the myth surrounding it

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 19:12

It's by far my favorite KC album. While I don't agree with all of your points, Jean, I think I like it most precisely because it succeeds in being musically and lyrically subversive while essentially adhering to traditional song structures. So I do think both "I Talk to the wind" and "Epitaph" are full fledged prog, because to me arrangements and attitude are part of what defines prog. But I have always felt a bit surprised at the love this album gets considering it really does retain a verse-chorus structure, which I find comforting!

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 21:30

Hi,

BaldJean wrote:

I consider "Lizard" to be much better than "ITCOTCK". I actually wonder why "ITCOTCK" is so highly rated when one fourth of the album is considered to be utter crap by many

Lyric wise, let's take a peek ... however, this is not an exercise that I enjoy doing, since lyrics for many folks mean different things. For example, the "hippie girl" image, for me, is not a sexy symbol per se, but an imaginary artist "muse", a much more innocent and inspiring person, than just a personal "possession" (hate that part!), which our social mores and controls tries to force us to be a part of. I think this "image" is important, and is sort of like the Romantic idea of "freedom" in so many paintings and such. it becomes a strong/important idea on its own, and it is not something that you can "possess" ... maybe that is the problem ... it's an idea, and as such, not really as valuable as the real thing/person.

Considering that at the time ITCOTCK came out, KC also did several free concerts and a bunch of events that were political in nature, I would suggest that the value and subject matter of the album is much more important, than "Lizard", which is less political and obvious than the 1st album. However, it is my thought that by the time "Lizard" came out that Rf was wondering what the band could do, and would do, and changes were coming, and they were very strong and complete changes by the time Lark's Tongues in Aspic" came out. And that included lyrics and their meaning.

21st Century Schizoid Man (the many megalomaniacs running various countries)

I Talk to the Wind (about the meaning of the words and how we do not hear/listen to them)

Epitath (always thought this was about the folks that died in the IRA and VietNam thing)

Moonchild (romantic ideal for a "hippie" girl?)

The Court of the Crimson King (always thought this was sort of like a lot of countries and how a few people control the rest of the country. In many ways, this could (easily) have been about the communist thing in Europe and its control, though that might be considered to be stretching things some. I see this as strong and wonderful as any "story" song that went on afterwards with Genesis, Ange, Fruup, and so many others around Europe)

Cirkus (somewhat about TV)

Indoor Games (I call it the "home song", as in house/home)

Happy Family (Possibly about the band)

Lady of the Dancing Water (possible romantic song about love gone)

Lizard (...ideas come and go on this one ... but I think it is sort of the human nature as a lizard ... one day this and next day that. Something like that which changes colors all the time)

I tend to think that the "ratings" are a sort of game that is played with cheating codes. Everyone talks about one album and rarely is anything said about the other, and that must mean, it is not as good, otherwise it would be mentioned in the same breadth, right?

Personally, I prefer not to think that one album is better than the next, because I look at the "group" as the "COMPOSER" and this gives us a different perspective. Same thing with Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator. Or as I like to say, is Rite of Spring better than the Firebird Suite or Petrushka? To me, this is about the composer, not the "song", and I think that we lose the perspective of the continuity of the work, under the name "KC" ... which to me, is one of the most valuable things about the band.

The "ratings" are a bit too much, for my tastes, about one's personal preferences. In this day and age where everyone has a say, their idea/opinion is just as important as your or mine, but for me, that is not enough to make it valuable ... there has to be more ... and the history of the arts has a better answer, than simply ... personal favorite ... something that a lot of folks, even in this board, do not like me to mention or discuss. This has less to do with the preferences, than it does with the total value of the work and the artist ... with, of course, the sad point that most folks do not even think of all this as "art" at all ... it's just a pop song!

Edited by moshkito - May 09 2018 at 21:40

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 21:44

It is my favourite King Crimson album indeed. I wish they had kept the same line-up at least for one more album... Wake of Poseidon might have been better if that had been the case.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 21:50

BaldJean wrote:

...

that being said let's have a closer look at ITCOTCK track by track:
...

This has the ugly smell of having been written by someone some 25 to 30 or 40 years later, and comparing the album to a standard that was set much later in the life of the music.

You would think that this was written about Stravinsky, or Bartok, or Orff, and that of course, too many parts of their work is not prog, and in act, not even modern ... it's crap!

The only valuable explanation of the album is the one that is related DIRECTLY to the time and place that helped create the album in the first place. This person, obviously, was too stoned and drunk to be able to read and study a little about that time and place ... it was not all days of wines and roses.

Honestly, trying to define an album that is almost 50 years old, by a standard that doesn't even "exist" and whose definition is so faulty and disgusting when it comes to defining music, that I find these kind of comments the kind of criticism that hurts the definition of music and of any art.

This reminds me of that Italian guy interviewing Gary Green, and the guy was giving Gary a "Lesson" on what "progressive music" was ... and after Gary said ... we just played it, we never wrote it!

Some folks just don't get it! And reading stuff like that about KC is sick ... really sick ... and so far out of proportion and time, it's not funny. That's not to say that I am right, but it is to say, that going around saying that Stravinsky is not prog, is just about ... what this guy did to KC's first album ... that guy wouldn't know prog anyway ... to him it all sounds the same ... and you are forgetting this about those kinds of folks.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 23:16

Court is my favorite album too, but Red, Lizard, Larks & In the Wake are also really close in greatness, also Islands and Starless & Bible have grown really great to me during the years. I like all the Crimson albums, but after seventies albums still are not even close to the greatness of their seventies albums.

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Posted: May 09 2018 at 23:18

Dellinger wrote:

It is my favourite King Crimson album indeed. I wish they had kept the same line-up at least for one more album... Wake of Poseidon might have been better if that had been the case.

To me it´s really hard to believe it would be better with original line-up. Of course it could have sounded different, there are really much difference in In the Wake and McDonald & Giles -albums, although I really love both.

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Posted: May 10 2018 at 00:06

Mortte wrote:

Court is my favorite album too, but Red, Lizard, Larks & In the Wake are also really close in greatness, also Islands and Starless & Bible have grown really great to me during the years. I like all the Crimson albums, but after seventies albums still are not even close to the greatness of their seventies albums.

I agree with the sentiments. A great album with great atmosphere, instrumentation, vocals and songs which flows from start to finish. Other albums like Islands and Starless and Bible Black have grown on me significantly more recently. Only Lizard has failed to grab me particularly, but that might change with more listens.

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