Why can't bands keep their level |
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
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^Thatīs not also wholly true. For example Sonic Youth develop into much more greater direction after their two first albums, made some of their greatest albums in the nineties that was 15 years after they started and continue making great albums also in the 2000`s. Nomeansno, that started in the begin of eighties, made itīs last album 2006 which is as great as their early albums.
Edited by Mortte - September 09 2018 at 05:44 |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14124 |
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There were no signs of decline whatsoever in Art Zoyd's output until
Armageddon (Armageddon itself is a strange album that surely doesn't qualify for the highest ratings but that's because of its concept and function, not because of diminishing powers); I just ordered Phase V and have no reason to expect anything else than something great. It's so sad that Hourbette dies recently; I think he still had lots to offer. I saw Holger Czukay live in 2009 at the age of 71 and he was still creative and sharp as a musician; he played quite a bit of new material that was great, but hardly anything of this was ever released (a small bit is on "Eleven Years Innerspace", I think). Ageing comes in thrusts and I think he had a tough job caring for his longtime ill wife then, and aged strongly himself before his death in 2017, but as long as he could, he was going strong. I just listen to 2005 music of contemporary composer Alvin Curran, born 1938 (as Czukay) and he's absolutely on 100% there; I heard newer stuff and he still is; he still does live things occasionally and doesn't come across as getting old and tired at all. Stockhausen was pretty bonkers at the end but his music was still innovative. It's totally possible. Fred Frith and John Zorn are still doing well. Being more avantgarde and oppositional seems to help. I'm pretty sure that drugs and alcohol play a big role in some people's (incl. many rock musicians) ageing before time. Sober does better in the long run (despite probably missing out on something at 20ish). |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 14736 |
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I have to disagree. While Joe's Garage never did much for me, and his canon is surely a spotty affair, i find albums like Thing-Fish and Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch to be utterly brilliant. Granted the earliest stuff was some of the best but Zappa held up in the creativity department even if it didn't appeal to everyone whereas bands like Yes, Genesis and the other suspects turned into the worst possible crap you could imagine. Zappa had turkeys from the beginning. Cruising with Rueben and the Jets was not very good IMHO. One thing that made Zappa more interesting for me is that he always changed the band members up to add more creative juices to flow. I think new chemistry is the key. Just my take on it. Many others can't stand the newer Zappa stuff but i've always loved it myself.
Edited by siLLy puPPy - September 09 2018 at 07:49 |
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The Unifaun
Forum Newbie Joined: July 27 2018 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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Because I have started this thread, I have to admit, that my question might have not been accurate enough. The question should have been, "Why does some progressive rock bands can't keep their level?"
So, yes, it's true - there are some who kept their level. To a certain extend. But did anyone with a big name made his best work in the later years? I don't think so. And I believe we collected a lot of reasons why this is the case. I have found a few reasons in this discussion that makes most sense to me - so for me, my question is answered. |
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Chaser
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Thank you for posting such an excellent question Unifaun. This discussion has been very enjoyable and informative with lots of really good contributions, so thank you.
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Songs cast a light on you
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The Unifaun
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I can only agree with you. The discussion was definitely fruitful and interesting.
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ReactioninG
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1. Lack of drive. Lack of outside discipline (record company pressure and intervention, touring/recording schedule, sales expectations, ambition). 2. Becoming a parody of yourself. Living up to expectations. 3. No new ideas. 4. Dissatisfaction with genre or music-playing in general. Interest in other or no forms of music. 5. Loss of important collaborators. 6. Personal crises and wear and tear.
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verslibre
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Their KTA originals were their best in YEARS.
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Atavachron
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Well observed and quite correct. It is the music around the solo that makes it work and be engaging, and a soloist's understanding of how music works in context with the chords and harmonies, both emotionally and technically. |
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uduwudu
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Maybe some bands do but they may change. They don't want to plough the same furrow but move on. The audience - particularly those who grew up with certain albums view those with a golden view. The emotional association is now in a package. Same with fans who lost their virginity when 90125 and Big Generator turned up. But the bands move on driven by whatever powers their imaginations. It seems whatever new things happen things change and the audience do not want change. Ironic is it not; progress demands change. So bands have different levels but the audience may only have one and that is the one level they view bands on. Really it's a diametric view; that of the audience to a band is not how a band sees itself. It's not just prog bands, every fan of most popular music "allow" a certain few albums to be the core and even later albums get lost. Some albums have had 30 - 50 years to grow but later efforts get dismissed (thinking of Bowie here). It's up the audience to adapt as well and people do not like change. At least pop culture doesn't affect prog bands and their audience too much. The gate keepers had no idea then and have been paying catch up in their press since (thinking of Prog magazine never mind all the rest from by gone days who had little to no idea). Pop culture limits acts, their audience and then prog turns up demanding too much attention. Pop culture is the corporate game and prog did not play that game. Slight digression but this is how perception of levels is created and maintained in the minds of the audience. The other half is when bands settle on a style e.g. Rush from Hold Your Fire onward and work within a more comfortable means of expression. Or Ozric Tentacles - the ACDC of prog who put out the same thing over and over. It's a band and their audience in a comfort zone, safe from change. |
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Guldbamsen
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Very much agree with both of you fine gents. Punk Flute is the quintessential band to showcase this imho. |
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
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Only after seventies album I have fully heard is Jazz From Hell, which I also think to be ok, but just ok. If you think I should listen those albums you mention (I hope theyīre not some kind of guitar m*sturbation like for example your one favourite Buckethead is) I promise to listen them someday. But, even those album will be great (which I have doubts) Zappa anyway released after 1985 mostly live albums, so you can say his creativity low in the end of his life. Or are you saying his three last studio albums great (I havenīt heard any of those)? And about many progbands after seventies stuff, I donīt think most of it is horrible crap, although most progbands stuff is at least little bit blander than their earlier stuff.
Edited by Mortte - September 10 2018 at 02:57 |
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Apricot
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There's a lot of factors that have already been mentioned. Record label control, getting old, etc. But I don't think prog-bands going pop was ever a lack of creativity or selling out, at least not initially. Art-rock started making its way into the scene in the 70s, and one if its underpinning philosophies was the blend of high and low culture. I think a lot of prog bands picked up on this, and INITIALLY it was a fresh creative choice to make - but then most people favoured the pop over the prog and prog-bands followed that tide.
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SteveG
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That music artists write a lot of music that ends up being recorded for future use when they are only in their early teens is a very common occurrence such as Greg Lake's Lucky Man, for example. After the initial creative drive, many dry up in their late 20's, which is also very common. Hence the rise and decline of the artist's music, especially in the 70's when many artists took off early on in the decade.
Edited by SteveG - September 10 2018 at 06:46 |
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
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To me it seems eighties were mostly the worst time in prog, many progbands had to turn into pop or split, because there were no audience to the ambitious music. But in the nineties there seemed to become again audience to the prog, although not as much as in the seventies at least in the UK. I think Faust is quite good example of this, it disbanded already in the seventies, but started again in the nineties and since then had made mostly great albums, the last one become last year.
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Jeffro
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Some bands simply have a shelf life and once they hit that, they are done creatively. Sometimes, they implode due to personal issues between the members, sometimes members perish, sometimes they just run out of ideas.
The idea of a constantly changing lineup aka King Crimson is an interesting one as it can infuse a band with new life. However I prefer bands that maintain more of a consistent lineup. It seems odd to me when bands have no original members anymore and yet still have the same name. Are they even still the same bands anymore? I would say no. KC is a bit different in that there was always Fripp leading the way.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14124 |
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Thinking specifically about bands (rather than individuals as in my earlier posting), it is also probably rare that different members develop in the same or compatible ways over time. Some bands would have their trademark style and for the members it may only be one thing among many they're interested in, and at some point they may drop it completely while still going on making music (Phil Collins in Brand X comes to mind). It is certainly harder for a band with several strong egos than for an individual to develop and change approach in a consistent manner, which is well illustrated by the different King Crimson lineups with one constant member. People are just different and the chemistry between people make work for some years and then no longer. It may work more easily between musicians who have a weaker drive to innovate and change, and who are happy to still play the same style and largely the same material after 20+ years. No wonder that this class of bands then doesn't come out with great new things anymore.
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cstack3
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Maybe fans should be allowed to reassign prog band members into new bands, to foster innovation?
In college, my chums and I used to speculate about "What if..." such as "What if Bob Fripp were to join Yes?" It turns out that he nearly did, after Banks was sacked! Some of these reassignment projects are very interesting. Anderson Ponty Band, although short-lived, was highly innovative and produced some very good music in its brief lifespan. Transatlantic is another impressive band that mixes and matches. I'm sure you will think of others. Regarding the 70s cohort, I fear that these heroes are aging and, although still in the game, won't be for many years longer. I lament that we do not have as many young artists developing the musical chops to take their places...PA is a great place to learn of new and emerging talent.
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
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On the other hand there are lots of bands that I am not interested at all their new material and just like everyone else, want to hear their old classics. No complaints about that Rog played only four songs in his quite great new solo album and rest was Floyd. And about Crimson I really would like to see them now when at least half of the material is from seventies.
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King Crimson776
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One thing about the early prog bands is that they were inspired by the scene around them and the recently opened possibilities. This propelled them beyond even their natural genius. As a result, once this initial burst of innovation was expressed, it became very difficult to sustain that level of quality output. A modern prog band, on the other hand, only has their own genius to draw upon in the first place. As such, they are not riding any wave of innovation and inspiration from outside of themselves that can then let them down once it has been exhausted. |
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