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Why can't bands keep their level
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Points: 11612 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2018 at 19:59
There are so many reasons why the output of certain bands diminished over the years, many of which have been mentioned here.  But there are many that didn't necessarily diminish.  Frank Zappa, as has been mentioned, didn't diminish in his compositional talents.  His discography is inconsistent through his entire career.  There is not a period of time where he has had both masterpieces and failures, sometimes one right after the other.  His ingenuity never really diminished though, it's just that some of his music didn't always appeal to everyone.  If you listen to "Civilization Phase 3", for example, you might think it is strange, but it is actually an amazing piece of work.  Same thing with "The Yellow Shark" and "Jazz From Hell".  But, of course there are many less than perfect albums released in the same time period, just as there were though his entire career
Another one that comes to mind is Steven Wilson.  His solo albums, "Porcupine Tree" albums and "No-man" albums all got better with time, and continue to get better.  Of course, he is younger than the Prog Gods of yesteryear, but he has been around for a while now, and most of the huge bands of yesteryear like ELP, Kansas and Genesis never kept up or built upon their quality as long as he has.
 
Then there is King Crimson.  I am partial to them because they are my favorite band, but I am just as impassioned for their later work as their early work.  Yes, as someone else mentioned, Fripp constantly changed the line up and didn't stagnate.  Bruford said, as noted in the band's biography on this sight, that if he wanted to hear the future, he just puts on a Crimson record.  "Thrak" is an often overlooked KC album that was so cutting edge for it's time and many bands of today have been inspired by it.  I love it as much as I love "Red" and that is saying a lot.  Sure, they changed their sound so much that some people didn't appreciate or like it because it was different from what they liked, but that does not mean that their later music was crap. 
 
I don't expect everyone to agree with this because everyone has their own taste.  There are bands that other people love here that I don't put on a pedestal like others do, but I admit that just because I don't like it doesn't mean it is bad music.  I'm not as crazy about "Genesis" as most people here, for example, but I appreciate their music and recognize that they are an amazing progressive band of the highest caliber, and I don't think they are overrated, but I have never been able to put them on a personal favorite list, and that is after giving myself plenty of chances through the years.  But I always keep my mind open.  Hey, I hated Yes when I was younger, now I don't understand what was wrong with me back then.  I even like some of their newer albums like "Magnification" and "The Ladder" (not the current band line up though, that is not Yes, it's someone that has highjacked the name, I don't think that will ever change in my mind.) 

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Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by The Unifaun The Unifaun wrote:

Because I have started this thread, I have to admit, that my question might have not been accurate enough. The question should have been, "Why does some progressive rock bands can't keep their level?"
So, yes, it's true - there are some who kept their level. To a certain extend. But did anyone with a big name made his best work in the later years? I don't think so.
And I believe we collected a lot of reasons why this is the case. I have found a few reasons in this discussion that makes most sense to me - so for me, my question is answered.

One thing about the early prog bands is that they were inspired by the scene around them and the recently opened possibilities. This propelled them beyond even their natural genius. As a result, once this initial burst of innovation was expressed, it became very difficult to sustain that level of quality output.

A modern prog band, on the other hand, only has their own genius to draw upon in the first place. As such, they are not riding any wave of innovation and inspiration from outside of themselves that can then let them down once it has been exhausted.


I already gave a few examples of later day albums that are great... but searching for the ones that are the best from the bands... For me The Raven That Refused to Sing is the best Steven Wilson album that I have heard, Porcupine Tree included. And I haven't heard much of their discographie's, but I understand Big Big Train's recent albums have been better received than their earlier ones, specially English Electric. Perhaps the same could be said about Anathema. And "The Road of Bones" seems to be considered IQ's best album... or at least the best rated one, if the rating haven't changed. I must be missing some other 80's or 90's band that I have seen with great ratings at this point.
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Points: 16165 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2018 at 06:57
Originally posted by The Unifaun The Unifaun wrote:

...
Why does so many super-prog-groups e.g. Yes, ELP, Genesis etc. made their best albums in the early years, while all releases afterwards never had the quality of their predecessors. To a certain extend it must be frustrating to be in business for 40 years and longer, and having your historical and cultural climax so far in the past.

I am of the opinion that over exposure of their work, only brought out the ants, the flies, the mice and the rest of the dirt possible.

When, in time, you have a couple of critics, like your parents, you are growing up and you secretly finger them, and do it your way anyway. But it seems, that when you have 6 cars, a pool, a mansion, ten girlfriends, 7 children and heaven knows what else ... I suppose that you might feel the pressure to come up with something "good" and "important" ... which translates into $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ... that is, it must SELL so the media can proclaim that the public likes it, and get even more sales out of it.

We can look at the history of many artists, composers, writers ... and some were applauded at first and some were trashed silly ... and my opinion for 2018 is that too many artists and "famous" people are allowing the media and the "fame" to dictate their livelihood, and my feelings about that is that they are not artists ... they are BEAN COUNTERS.

All in all, there are some dedicated folks that deserve some serious credit for the amount of work ... a Peter Hammill let's say ... but these days, the media does not give a poop about the amount of work, and its quality ... everywhere you go, all you see is numbers about how much it sold, or how many people did not see this movie or that movie, and so on. And, we, sometimes like RPW's "A Nation of Sheep" are afraid of the "powers that be" and what they can do, and all we are finding is a President that is very selfish and not exactly fair, when it comes to his politics, up to and including intimidating people, with complete disrespect for the nation's Constitution. 

Is that a good example for your own child?

There was a REAL, and IMPORTANT reason for the 60's and the upheaval that brought on so many changes in the arts, all of them ... and they had to do with similar thoughts and concepts, with too many folks "up there" that did not give a cahoot about anything except their fame and good words on the media ... and 50 to 60 years later, we still are doing the same thing, and applauding "stars", some of whom are likely the most vain and selfish folks around ... ohhh, excuse me ... I have a pet something to do to make me look good and get some media attention ... I'm going to take out the garbage for my elderly neighbor that is bed ridden, and then going to take the old lady's dog out for a stroll, since she is not capable of walking that far! Even DE might enjoy that one!
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Points: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gforce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2018 at 22:48
Test post from newbie. I just wrote a dissertation and it vanished when I hit post. This is only a test.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Making quality music year after year is really, really hard.   One only has a finite amount of good ideas without repeating oneself, and the listening public is unforgiving, impatient and unrealistic.   A band that is together for ten years and puts out consistent work isn't the norm but instead is lucky, has unusual chemistry and works hard.   That's a rare thing.

Albums like Crest of a Knave or 90215 or Abacab are even more impressive in this context and saw these bands digging deep into their creative coffers, bravely releasing music that was both new and of high quality even though the work may not considered their best.


It's good of David to bring this question back down to earth. Just writing material for one good album is a major accomplishment let alone a string of 5 or 6.
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Points: 5538 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2018 at 06:53
^There are artists that has made much more great albums than just 5 or 6, but only progartist that come into my mind, who has done it, is Faust. Well, I think Circle also has made more.
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Points: 20503 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2018 at 06:56
5 to 6 is the average number for the super bands like Yes or Genesis. But that's rare.
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Points: 16165 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2018 at 08:42
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

5 to 6 is the average number for the super bands like Yes or Genesis. But that's rare.

I think that many artists blew this out of the universe. It's hard to think that Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Amon Duul 2, Can, Ange, PFM, Ozric Tentacles, Gong, Frank Zappa ... and so many other bands, had an incredible amount of great work, even though we think that only a couple of these bands count on the theme that we're discussing. 

Heck, TD was as good if not better in concert in the later years than in the earlier days, when the music was great, but the cohesion of it all was not as lively and exciting as the later moments with a guitarist, Linda, and a additional drummer on electronic drums. It added a strength to the material that was already top notch.

The "measure" should not be on our preferences. The measure should be on the complete listing of works, and both YES and GENESIS did extremely well in their lifetime, and we love them for it, despite us thinking that only a couple of pieces count. You and I do not sit here and say that Picasso's Blue Period is sheep dip and that the Rose Period is bull dip! And I'm not about to say the same thing about YES or GENESIS due to the amount of respect I have for them as artists ... most folks will never get that far and do so much!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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