Why can't bands keep their level |
Post Reply | Page <1234 5> |
Author | ||
verslibre
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 15194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Their KTA originals were their best in YEARS.
|
||
ReactioninG
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 26 2017 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 156 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
1. Lack of drive. Lack of outside discipline (record company pressure and intervention, touring/recording schedule, sales expectations, ambition). 2. Becoming a parody of yourself. Living up to expectations. 3. No new ideas. 4. Dissatisfaction with genre or music-playing in general. Interest in other or no forms of music. 5. Loss of important collaborators. 6. Personal crises and wear and tear.
|
||
The Unifaun
Forum Newbie Joined: July 27 2018 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 18 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I can only agree with you. The discussion was definitely fruitful and interesting.
|
||
Chaser
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 18 2018 Location: Nottingham Status: Offline Points: 1202 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|
Thank you for posting such an excellent question Unifaun. This discussion has been very enjoyable and informative with lots of really good contributions, so thank you.
|
||
Songs cast a light on you
|
||
The Unifaun
Forum Newbie Joined: July 27 2018 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 18 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Because I have started this thread, I have to admit, that my question might have not been accurate enough. The question should have been, "Why does some progressive rock bands can't keep their level?"
So, yes, it's true - there are some who kept their level. To a certain extend. But did anyone with a big name made his best work in the later years? I don't think so. And I believe we collected a lot of reasons why this is the case. I have found a few reasons in this discussion that makes most sense to me - so for me, my question is answered. |
||
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 14769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I have to disagree. While Joe's Garage never did much for me, and his canon is surely a spotty affair, i find albums like Thing-Fish and Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch to be utterly brilliant. Granted the earliest stuff was some of the best but Zappa held up in the creativity department even if it didn't appeal to everyone whereas bands like Yes, Genesis and the other suspects turned into the worst possible crap you could imagine. Zappa had turkeys from the beginning. Cruising with Rueben and the Jets was not very good IMHO. One thing that made Zappa more interesting for me is that he always changed the band members up to add more creative juices to flow. I think new chemistry is the key. Just my take on it. Many others can't stand the newer Zappa stuff but i've always loved it myself.
Edited by siLLy puPPy - September 09 2018 at 07:49 |
||
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
||
Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14179 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
There were no signs of decline whatsoever in Art Zoyd's output until
Armageddon (Armageddon itself is a strange album that surely doesn't qualify for the highest ratings but that's because of its concept and function, not because of diminishing powers); I just ordered Phase V and have no reason to expect anything else than something great. It's so sad that Hourbette dies recently; I think he still had lots to offer. I saw Holger Czukay live in 2009 at the age of 71 and he was still creative and sharp as a musician; he played quite a bit of new material that was great, but hardly anything of this was ever released (a small bit is on "Eleven Years Innerspace", I think). Ageing comes in thrusts and I think he had a tough job caring for his longtime ill wife then, and aged strongly himself before his death in 2017, but as long as he could, he was going strong. I just listen to 2005 music of contemporary composer Alvin Curran, born 1938 (as Czukay) and he's absolutely on 100% there; I heard newer stuff and he still is; he still does live things occasionally and doesn't come across as getting old and tired at all. Stockhausen was pretty bonkers at the end but his music was still innovative. It's totally possible. Fred Frith and John Zorn are still doing well. Being more avantgarde and oppositional seems to help. I'm pretty sure that drugs and alcohol play a big role in some people's (incl. many rock musicians) ageing before time. Sober does better in the long run (despite probably missing out on something at 20ish). |
||
Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
^Thatīs not also wholly true. For example Sonic Youth develop into much more greater direction after their two first albums, made some of their greatest albums in the nineties that was 15 years after they started and continue making great albums also in the 2000`s. Nomeansno, that started in the begin of eighties, made itīs last album 2006 which is as great as their early albums.
Edited by Mortte - September 09 2018 at 05:44 |
||
King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2764 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Actually, with a lot of modern prog bands, they get better as they make more albums and refine their sound. IQ is probably the best example of this, though I love their 80's work too. I think Neal Morse, The Flower Kings and Steven Wilson have continued at a high quality level too.
The bands that suffer the most from the phenomenon you describe are punk bands and the like, where their music is almost entirely dependent on youthful energy and raw emotion, as opposed to compositional creativity.
|
||
Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I also don't hold with the idea that creativity is a function of youth. Most jazz musicians get better with age. You get more experience, more ideas, as you get older - some times. It's not black and white, some musicians get better, some get lazy and worse. Jazz tends to be a musical genre with non static personnel, though.
One additional thing - bands tend to stick together. The drummer is rubbish, the bass player is a one trick pony, but you stay together as you're friends or contracted to do so. Or it all ends in "creative differences" and bad output, anyway. Sometimes, when you're trying to play with other people, you have to accept that what you're producing is a joint effort and you don't always agree about the way someone's done something. Unless you play all the instruments yourself, that's what's going to happen. One of the problems is building on ideas. You can release an album which works perfectly: the next idea sounds great in theory but turns out bad in practice. By the time you've started recording, you're somewhat committed to it and it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to change direction. There also used to be the idea that you'd release an album once a year, when albums should have been released when the artist was ready. Then, you have a music company who are paying a group of long haired weirdoes to sit around smoking dope rather than producing "product", going on tour and making money for them. So pressure is put on to churn some stuff out. |
||
|
||
Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Every album is just a moment in time. It's a combination of ideas, enthusiasm and and circumstance. To quote Heraclitus, you cannot step into the same river twice.
Apart from commercialism taking over, people get bored of playing with each other, people wear their repertoires out, it all becomes a drag, there are internal arguments, "creative differences" and the need to pay the bills - it all becomes boring and samey but you all stay together to pay the bills. Bands have a half life and tend to play best when no one person is in total control and you have floating members. |
||
|
||
Mortte
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
philipemery
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2018 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 165 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
*Raises hand I like Heaven & Earth more than the vast majority of the early output... |
||
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon. -- Pink Floyd
|
||
Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12610 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yeah, but Pink Floyd is a weird case, since (at least for me), just about all of their albums are at least good. And they have so many fans that some will easily like the sound of one era, while not really being able to get into the sound of another (some love them because of their pop sensibilities, some love them because of their experimentation, some love them because of their long musical instrumental passages). However, I dare you find someone who likes Heaven & Earth (or Tormato, Union, The Ladder) more than Close to the Edge, Fragile, or The Yes album (yeah yeah, I know, there's tastes for everyone and you might actually find someone out there who does like H&E better). |
||
Walkscore
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 16 2017 Location: Toronto, Canada Status: Offline Points: 231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
While creativity might be stronger in youth, I think there is another better reason for why the best albums *tend* to the earlier one: record company involvement. In the late 1970s in particular, record companies put the screws on existing bands - they wanted a radio hit. Note that Fripp ended Crimson just before this kind of thing hit in the mid 70s, and generally didn't like making Crimson albums when he felt pressured.
Even today, I think a lot of the difference in quality relates to pressures put on musicians, either to come out with a follow-up quickly, match a current sound, keep up with the Jones band, etc. But when good musicians take the time to make music that speaks to them, it is generally quality music.
|
||
verslibre
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 15194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Their comeback, so to speak, was marked by a splendid little album they released in 2002, called Vapor Trails.
|
||
verslibre
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 15194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
...Goblin! Non Ho Sonno (2000), BacktotheGoblin 2005 and Four of a Kind (2015) are as good as anything they did from '75 to '80.
|
||
cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6794 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Some of the creativity burst in the beginning was due to bands competing against each other! This is well documented...Yes, King Crimson, ELP and Genesis etc. were out to prove who could play faster, more complex pieces and draw more attention.
I miss those days!
|
||
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
|
||
Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 32962 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The effectiveness of a solo depends so much on the context. A good solo doesn't just support the music, it is the music (of course it's a part of the music). How integral it is and how integrated it should be into the greater piece depends on context and an individual's assessment. Sometimes a solo adds another dimension to the music, and an interesting opportunity to explore themes and create contrasts. It can work well in juxtaposition, or can be used in a more cohesive, straight-forward musical manner. In metal and hard rock I do tend to find solos boring as they seem too often to be added in just to show-off their chops rather than as a more "artistic" means to convey a feeling or to add to the feel. With many heavy metal acts, it's like a formulaic patchwork, insert guitar solo here, insert drum solo here, and doesn't feel organic. It doesn't to my ears add to the piece, but others enjoy it, and sometimes they're just having fun with it.
I often love hearing solo compositions where the whole piece is one solo -- I love solo cello, piano and xylophone for instance -- but in the band context, rarely does a long solo section added into the piece work very well for me. I have heard some jazz band recordings with some good long solos and many classical works where I felt that the solos (say in concertos) positively added to the musical experience, and it wasn't being done just for the sake of having a solo. Side-note: There are many examples of shorter solos in rock that I think are very good, though I prefer it when they are acoustic instruments on the whole (guitar, violin, woodwinds such as flute, oboe, vibraphone, piano etc.). Hearing a solo instrument rise out of the rest of the band or orchestration to stand alone can be sublime. I do think that one could come up with very long solos that work beautifully into the composition. Is it necessary, maybe not, but then ultimately what is? If that's their creative vision and it's not just being used to show off (see how good we are), then great. Sorry, no sleep, and I know this is really badly presented/ written/ thought-out and rambling post. |
||
The Unifaun
Forum Newbie Joined: July 27 2018 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 18 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If a ten minute solo is made for its own sake, I don't see a reason for that. If it supports the music, it is very much welcomed. I agree that pure posing, to show playing ability, is damn boring. And this happen far to often. I was for long time a DT "fan". Not any longer. Too one-dimensional - technique first. Not my taste any more.
|
||
Post Reply | Page <1234 5> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |