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Brexit: A change of heart?? |
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ExittheLemming 
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Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
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 Posted: December 31 2018 at 21:24 |
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(Brexit) the Lemming emigrated from the UK 18 years ago. Never regretted it. Complete joke of a country which is now the laughing stock of the civilized world. My bet is Ethiopia will be staging a rock concert for their benefit in a few years time (Pom-Aid)
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Chaser
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 19:08 |
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Hi Dougie! Well, I will respond directly to your post, and, firstly, I should say welcome to the forum! I guess I should just let you know my position on Brexit first: I voted "Remain", essentially because I thought that the process of leaving the EU would be very painful and that the benefits of leaving (if there are benefits) were unclear and would probably take a long time to come through. However, I did not vote "Remain" because I have any love for the EU. I do not. I'm not sure that your clip outraged me too much. This sort of hospitality is common at diplomatic events, and it didn't appear excessively lavish to me. However, I do view the EU as a "gravy train" for many and a colossal waste of money (as it spends £150 million a year moving all the MEP's from Brussels to Strasbourg every month to vote, just because that was how they drew up the treaty and no-one wants to change it). So, taking your points in turn: Point 1: The introduction of the Euro was a disaster for many EU countries and has been the cause of huge problems throughout the eurozone. Having monetary union (a single currency) without fiscal union (a single European government that decides tax and spending policies) is completely unworkable and means that, without full political union, the European project is now doomed to inevitable failure. The perfect example of this was Greece. After joining the Euro, Greece was able to borrow money at rates it would never have been able to obtain with the drachma. Greece then went on a spending spree with all the borrowed money, massively expanding its public sector because the Greek government controlled Greek tax and spending policies. It's well known that Greeks don't pay tax and Greece was therefore simply borrowing more money to service the debt. The result was inevitable bankruptcy for Greece when it was clear that it could no longer afford to service the debt. Only German money now keeps Greece afloat, meaning that Greece has to do whatever Germany wants. The Republic of Ireland went on a similar spending spree, and built hundreds of thousands of houses, when it only has a population of 4 million. When the financial crash happened it became clear that the houses would never be sold and the banks who had financed them went bust and were only bailed out by the EU. The Republic of Ireland is now in debt to the EU to the tune of 200 billion euros. Similarly, entering the Euro has been disastrous for countries like Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Because they no longer set their own interest rates they cannot respond when their economies get into trouble and borrowing costs have become so high that they have also had to go to the ECB for help. Spain has a youth unemployment rate of 35% and many of those have never had a job. The Italian banks are on the verge of collapse, Germany is now in recession, and France is in revolt with almost daily protests on the streets. This is the price of European integration and the great European dream of "ever closer union" (more like a nightmare as far as I am concerned) The only real question is: which will happen first - the UK leaving the EU or the EU collapsing? 2. Well, I think point 1 above answers your question here. They don't have jobs at home. 3. I think it's fair to say that we have plenty of our own home grown "low life" in the UK, so I'm not sure we're in a position to look down our noses at people from other countries. However, I think it's fair to say that Tony Blair made a major error in lifting visa restrictions for Romanians when Romania joined the EU. Blair thought that not many Romanians would come to the UK. In the event 413,000 arrived in 2015 alone and this did fuel discontent in the UK population. Many Romanians are good hard working people, and I don't like stereotyping a nation, however, I think it's fair to say that there are significant criminal elements in the Romanian migrant population, and, like any criminal, they will go where the pickings are richest (i.e. the streets of the UK) I support immigration to our country, but I think that we should be able to decide who we want and who we don't want, and it should not be the EU that decides. In addition I want the UK to be able to choose migrants from anywhere in the world and not be forced to favour migrants from the EU. At the moment EU migrants can come to the UK to work whenever they want to under the free movement rules, but migrants from outside the EU have to go through a visa process, thus favouring EU migrants. We need immigrants and anyone that thinks that we don't is seriously deluded about the requirements to run a modern economy. However, we should be the ones that control the system, it should not be controlled by others who do not live in our country. 4. Non-EU migrants wanting to come to the UK. Well, many of these people are quite poor and they deserve to be treated with humanity and respect. However, most of them are economic migrants and not political refugees. The reasons that they want to come to the UK are, firstly, we have high levels of employment and it's easy for them to find work, even if it's in the "black" economy. In France it's very difficult for them to get work or benefits of any kind. Many of them already have family or friends in the UK, so it makes it easier for them to start a new life in the UK. In addition English is a very widely spoken language and many of the migrants speak English, which makes the UK a more attractive destination for them. However, much as I have sympathy for many of these people, they cannot just walk into a country because they want to. There are rules and regulations about migration which everyone has to adhere to. If I turned up in a boat in Canada, or the USA, or Australia, or virtually any other country, and said I was here to stay but I had no work visa or entry permit, I would, quite rightly, be put on a boat straight back to the UK. Rules are rules and economic migrants, however poor they may be, have to go through the proper procedures if they want to emigrate to the UK. Anything else invites utter chaos and is highly unfair on those migrants who have gone through the proper process in order to emigrate to the UK. However, I don't think we can really blame the EU for this particular problem, except to the extent that the EU is currently incapable of effectively policing its external borders. Hope the above provides some sort of response to your post. In any case I would like to take the opportunity to wish Leavers and Remainers across the UK, and people from anywhere else in the world, a very happy new year! |
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NutterAlert
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 13:35 |
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Maybe you should start apologising then, as it has nothing to do with you! if I was going to quote you I would have done so and left you in no doubt!!! since you ask I am sick of people like conservative MP for Dover talking about migrants coming across the channel "strolling into this country" when people are being ripped off and risking their lives to get to a country that wants nothing to do with them. There are no easy answers to any of this but I am sick of the xenophobes, many of them appear to come from the families who over history have stomped around the globe building empires and filling their own pockets. |
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Dougie McGee
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Joined: December 23 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 12:37 |
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Is that you answering my post..? Because if it is it really isn't much of an answer. I could of course respond in kind with an ad hominem riposte equal to or in stronger terms than your own, and frankly yours is pretty much the kind of answer I expected to get, ie no answer at all but just a cheap insult. However I asked some genuine questions - all of which are backed up by a wealth of evidence available to all, and I stand by them, so if you could switch your brain on for just a moment maybe you could address them instead of just chucking a moronic insult into the ring.. So how about it..? PS if your answer wasn't directed at me then I apologise for kicking off.
Edited by Dougie McGee - December 31 2018 at 12:39 |
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NutterAlert
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 12:09 |
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migrants = human beings. sick of all the xenophobic bollocks in this country.
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 02:18 |
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Interesting discussion so if I might presume to add my own tuppence worth .. I can't vote in the poll above but for the record I voted to leave and haven't changed my mind. Here's a short 3 minute video clip which provides a small but nonetheless indisputable example of how YOUR hard earned cash in the form of taxes is being used by the EU : Please watch it in full and enjoy.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJsrJUuonkM Secondly I have a couple of questions : 1. If the EU is such a wonderful entity as I'm continually told it is, could someone please enlighten me as to why so many of it's member states exist on the verge of bankruptcy and are apparently forced to remain in such a condition due to financial policy largely dictated by Germany..? 2. Again, If the EU is such a wonderful entity as I'm continually told it is, then why do so many of it's working age people want to come to Britain rather than stay at home..? both professionals and lesser skilled individuals..? 3. Same question as number 2 for the plethora of EU low life we seem to attract here in Blighty ; Roma beggars, Eastern European gangsters, people traffickers, arms dealers, drug dealers, health tourists, general scroungers and other professional or opportunist criminals...? 4. And finally - and this is the one that really gets me at the moment - If the EU is so amazing then why do all these so called "poor, desperate" and IMO entirely fake 3rd world refugees want to come to Britain, who in their own words "would rather die at sea than remain in France for one more day" ..? (I call them fake because they have already travelled through several 1st world designated safe countries to reach us here at the end of the line thereby defying the criteria of the Dublin Convention) And re 4 above as an added little titbit : why does our own government blatantly collude with others, acting openly against the interests of the country and against the wishes of the majority of the population..? EU issues notwithstanding, the best example I can think of this was (is..?) the "unaccompanied minors" scam, many of whom turned out to be fully grown men over 21 years of age, 6 ft tall, bearded, and for the most part uneducated and with zero useable skills. You may remember that these migrants were brought in to the country under the most suspicious of circumstances, and kept concealed behind large screens so that none of us plebs could actually see them arriving. All suggestions and ideas welcome.
Edited by Dougie McGee - December 31 2018 at 08:08 |
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LAM-SGC
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Joined: December 26 2018 Location: se Status: Offline Points: 1542 |
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 16:25 |
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I agree with you fully, on the right for people to make bad decisions and the right to vote on a subject without having read up on it or having found out the truth. And as such that democracy would be assassinated if a second referendum were to be held totally disregarding the votes of the people in the first one.
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Chaser
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 15:25 |
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I think that one of the questions that Brexit raises is:
In a democracy do the people have the democratic right to make bad decisions? Of course, I am assuming that Brexit is a bad decision (in reality I think that the jury is very much out on that question, and we may never know the answer if we end up with a "soft" Brexit, or no Brexit at all) I think that, logically, in a democracy, people must have the democratic right to make a bad decision, or there is no democracy. This is where I think many ordinary British voters take issue with the EU when the EU instructs populations who vote against it to go back and vote again until they get it right (witness Ireland and Denmark). The EU believes that the will of an "enlightened" elite should always overrule the democratic will of a people.
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LAM-SGC
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 14:47 |
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All very true. And I agree. If you, as the PM, call a referendum then it is understood that you will act on the result.
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Chaser
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 11:54 |
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You are correct that a referendum is advisory in the UK.
However, whilst Cameron was under no legal requirement to carry out the referendum result, not to do so would have undermined democracy in the UK and lead to very serious consequences, possibly even actual civil war. The government sent a leaflet to all households during the referendum campaign saying "whatever you decide the government will carry out your wishes" To then turn around and say that actually what they meant was that they will only carry out the peoples wishes if the people vote the way that the government wants them to would have destroyed credibility in the government and set the government against the people. You cannot ask the people to choose and then tell the people that the government is overruling their decision. |
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LAM-SGC
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 10:55 |
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In the UK a referendum is an advisory instrument not a legal one, so Cameron was under no obligation to act on the result.
Edited by LAM-SGC - December 28 2018 at 14:45 |
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Chaser
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 06:26 |
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Thanks LAM-SGC! It's great to hear the perspective from another European country.
I think we are very much caught up in a Brexit bubble here in the UK and it's nice to break out and get a perspective from outside the bubble every now and then. The position is not really that different in the UK, in that those politicians who support Brexit tend to be either on the right wing or the left wing of politics. The right wing dislikes the EU because it reduces national sovereignty, and the left wing dislikes the EU because of the EU's democratic deficit, and, (in the case of Jeremy Corbyn) because of the perception that EU rules would curtail some of his ambitions to nationalise and provide state aid to British industry. The irony is that the majority of British MP's in parliament are against the UK leaving the EU, but are having to vote against their own judgement because the British people have given them an instruction to leave.
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LAM-SGC
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 05:52 |
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Oddly enough, the views heard among Swedes on Brexit are almost 50/50 but in reverse to the result of UK vote, viewed as it is from the perspective of Sweden's EU membership. Calls for Swexit are growing all the time. But polls here show that a referendum on Swexit would give about a 60% win to remain. The strange thing in Sweden is that the most support for a Swexit doesn't come from Socialdemokraterna (Social Democrats - Labour) or Moderaterna (Moderates - Conservative) but from the two main extreme parties the far right Sverigedemokraterna (Swedish Democrats - UKIP ) and Vänster (Communist)
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Blacksword
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Posted: December 10 2018 at 03:18 |
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Yes, free movement will continue regardless of what deal we strike (if any) I'm not sure the Brexit brigade have figured this out yet. It'll be funny, a year after Brexit, when hundreds of thousands are still coming into the country, from all over the world, and the Leave brigade start losing their sh*t, big time. |
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moshkito
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Posted: December 09 2018 at 08:28 |
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The thing that scares me the most is the amount of misinformation going around and then expect people to vote for something they do not know about, or understand. Interesting comment about RM earlier, and the first thought I had was ... he just wants to monopolize the economy for his own benefit ... not for any worthwhile political reason or idea. And since it is HIS MEDIA, nothing is said or stated that is incorrect, or bad, to make him look weak and not worth the idea ... thus, adding to the confusion of the whole thing. But, if things continue with folks like RM gaining more and more strength, in the end, the monarchy will be set aside as secondary and its budget cut up, so he can gain more from it all. It will become a different monarchy at that time ... and for crying out loud, maybe that is what we need ... I'm so tired of the other two gaddabouts and their adventures and pictures on the papers! Feels just like the Brexit stuff ... give them those beautiful pictures and they will forget to vote! Or as a guy that became president in America ... the line that made me quit ... "let them smoke dope, and I will win all the elections!". Same thing here ... giving the public the cheapest dope and make them think it's important and then making changes on the sly that we have no idea what these are all about ... England and many other countries in Europe do not have an "immigration" issue per se, except in a couple of places where Easterners are wanting to get out of the Middle East, which is a serious enough issue ... but towards Western Europe this is less of a problem, though all of a sudden a pocket of some marginal this or that decides they don't want any long eared Venusians around! What else is new? Europe killed millions of those for years in the name of a religion alone!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Davesax1965
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Posted: December 07 2018 at 09:42 |
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I honestly think that I couldn't give a bu88er about Brexit any more. I'm very tired of hearing about it, to be honest. It's a giant cock up, no matter which way it ends, it'll be an absolute embarrassing disaster. Wake me up when it's over, if it ever is.
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NutterAlert
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Posted: December 06 2018 at 06:18 |
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While we stand of the cusp of chaos led by bloody emperors who have no f**king idea what they are doing, history would cross its legs and not let any of this rabble near its skirt, luckily we are missing the real story from COP24 that we are wantonly destroying the environment. When will these morons face the real challenge and work as a team together to deal with the biggest challenge our destructive, selfish, and spiteful little species has wrought on this planet.
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Chaser
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Posted: December 05 2018 at 06:17 |
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Certainly immigration was an overriding issue for many voters, but, as far as I can see, we are going to get free movement of people in any case. The May "deal" ties us into the EU potentially in perpetuity with no say over any regulations and accepting all of the four freedoms, including free movement of people, until such time as the EU agrees that we can get out of it, and how likely are they to do that? A commentator that I have much respect for, Mervyn King, the ex governor of the Bank of England, has written an excellent article for Bloomberg, which I strongly urge you to read if you haven't read it. Mervyn King supported Leave, but he is very moderate, level headed and balanced in his views and, for me, he talks a great deal of sense. Edited by Chaser - December 05 2018 at 10:04 |
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chopper
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Posted: December 05 2018 at 05:07 |
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Undoubtedly true for some people sadly, but it's also about leaving a corrupt and unnecessarily beaurocratic organisation.
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Blacksword
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Posted: December 05 2018 at 03:15 |
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I agree. We do need to break it. The Norway/Switzerland arrangement would be rejected though, as it still allows for the free movement of people, and keeping "Johnny Foreigner" out was sadly at the core of the Leave mentality, above all else. A least that's how it seemed to me. It was all about control of borders, and kicking people out so thee would be more 'British jobs for British people' etc etc.. |
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Dougie McGee wrote: