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Brexit: A change of heart?? |
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LAM-SGC 
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Joined: December 26 2018 Location: se Status: Offline Points: 1542 |
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 Posted: December 28 2018 at 14:47 |
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All very true. And I agree. If you, as the PM, call a referendum then it is understood that you will act on the result.
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Chaser
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 15:25 |
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I think that one of the questions that Brexit raises is:
In a democracy do the people have the democratic right to make bad decisions? Of course, I am assuming that Brexit is a bad decision (in reality I think that the jury is very much out on that question, and we may never know the answer if we end up with a "soft" Brexit, or no Brexit at all) I think that, logically, in a democracy, people must have the democratic right to make a bad decision, or there is no democracy. This is where I think many ordinary British voters take issue with the EU when the EU instructs populations who vote against it to go back and vote again until they get it right (witness Ireland and Denmark). The EU believes that the will of an "enlightened" elite should always overrule the democratic will of a people.
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LAM-SGC
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Posted: December 28 2018 at 16:25 |
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I agree with you fully, on the right for people to make bad decisions and the right to vote on a subject without having read up on it or having found out the truth. And as such that democracy would be assassinated if a second referendum were to be held totally disregarding the votes of the people in the first one.
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 02:18 |
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Interesting discussion so if I might presume to add my own tuppence worth .. I can't vote in the poll above but for the record I voted to leave and haven't changed my mind. Here's a short 3 minute video clip which provides a small but nonetheless indisputable example of how YOUR hard earned cash in the form of taxes is being used by the EU : Please watch it in full and enjoy.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJsrJUuonkM Secondly I have a couple of questions : 1. If the EU is such a wonderful entity as I'm continually told it is, could someone please enlighten me as to why so many of it's member states exist on the verge of bankruptcy and are apparently forced to remain in such a condition due to financial policy largely dictated by Germany..? 2. Again, If the EU is such a wonderful entity as I'm continually told it is, then why do so many of it's working age people want to come to Britain rather than stay at home..? both professionals and lesser skilled individuals..? 3. Same question as number 2 for the plethora of EU low life we seem to attract here in Blighty ; Roma beggars, Eastern European gangsters, people traffickers, arms dealers, drug dealers, health tourists, general scroungers and other professional or opportunist criminals...? 4. And finally - and this is the one that really gets me at the moment - If the EU is so amazing then why do all these so called "poor, desperate" and IMO entirely fake 3rd world refugees want to come to Britain, who in their own words "would rather die at sea than remain in France for one more day" ..? (I call them fake because they have already travelled through several 1st world designated safe countries to reach us here at the end of the line thereby defying the criteria of the Dublin Convention) And re 4 above as an added little titbit : why does our own government blatantly collude with others, acting openly against the interests of the country and against the wishes of the majority of the population..? EU issues notwithstanding, the best example I can think of this was (is..?) the "unaccompanied minors" scam, many of whom turned out to be fully grown men over 21 years of age, 6 ft tall, bearded, and for the most part uneducated and with zero useable skills. You may remember that these migrants were brought in to the country under the most suspicious of circumstances, and kept concealed behind large screens so that none of us plebs could actually see them arriving. All suggestions and ideas welcome.
Edited by Dougie McGee - December 31 2018 at 08:08 |
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NutterAlert
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 12:09 |
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migrants = human beings. sick of all the xenophobic bollocks in this country.
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Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 12:37 |
Is that you answering my post..? Because if it is it really isn't much of an answer. I could of course respond in kind with an ad hominem riposte equal to or in stronger terms than your own, and frankly yours is pretty much the kind of answer I expected to get, ie no answer at all but just a cheap insult. However I asked some genuine questions - all of which are backed up by a wealth of evidence available to all, and I stand by them, so if you could switch your brain on for just a moment maybe you could address them instead of just chucking a moronic insult into the ring.. So how about it..? PS if your answer wasn't directed at me then I apologise for kicking off.
Edited by Dougie McGee - December 31 2018 at 12:39 |
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NutterAlert
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 13:35 |
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Maybe you should start apologising then, as it has nothing to do with you! if I was going to quote you I would have done so and left you in no doubt!!! since you ask I am sick of people like conservative MP for Dover talking about migrants coming across the channel "strolling into this country" when people are being ripped off and risking their lives to get to a country that wants nothing to do with them. There are no easy answers to any of this but I am sick of the xenophobes, many of them appear to come from the families who over history have stomped around the globe building empires and filling their own pockets. |
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Chaser
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 19:08 |
Hi Dougie! Well, I will respond directly to your post, and, firstly, I should say welcome to the forum! I guess I should just let you know my position on Brexit first: I voted "Remain", essentially because I thought that the process of leaving the EU would be very painful and that the benefits of leaving (if there are benefits) were unclear and would probably take a long time to come through. However, I did not vote "Remain" because I have any love for the EU. I do not. I'm not sure that your clip outraged me too much. This sort of hospitality is common at diplomatic events, and it didn't appear excessively lavish to me. However, I do view the EU as a "gravy train" for many and a colossal waste of money (as it spends £150 million a year moving all the MEP's from Brussels to Strasbourg every month to vote, just because that was how they drew up the treaty and no-one wants to change it). So, taking your points in turn: Point 1: The introduction of the Euro was a disaster for many EU countries and has been the cause of huge problems throughout the eurozone. Having monetary union (a single currency) without fiscal union (a single European government that decides tax and spending policies) is completely unworkable and means that, without full political union, the European project is now doomed to inevitable failure. The perfect example of this was Greece. After joining the Euro, Greece was able to borrow money at rates it would never have been able to obtain with the drachma. Greece then went on a spending spree with all the borrowed money, massively expanding its public sector because the Greek government controlled Greek tax and spending policies. It's well known that Greeks don't pay tax and Greece was therefore simply borrowing more money to service the debt. The result was inevitable bankruptcy for Greece when it was clear that it could no longer afford to service the debt. Only German money now keeps Greece afloat, meaning that Greece has to do whatever Germany wants. The Republic of Ireland went on a similar spending spree, and built hundreds of thousands of houses, when it only has a population of 4 million. When the financial crash happened it became clear that the houses would never be sold and the banks who had financed them went bust and were only bailed out by the EU. The Republic of Ireland is now in debt to the EU to the tune of 200 billion euros. Similarly, entering the Euro has been disastrous for countries like Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Because they no longer set their own interest rates they cannot respond when their economies get into trouble and borrowing costs have become so high that they have also had to go to the ECB for help. Spain has a youth unemployment rate of 35% and many of those have never had a job. The Italian banks are on the verge of collapse, Germany is now in recession, and France is in revolt with almost daily protests on the streets. This is the price of European integration and the great European dream of "ever closer union" (more like a nightmare as far as I am concerned) The only real question is: which will happen first - the UK leaving the EU or the EU collapsing? 2. Well, I think point 1 above answers your question here. They don't have jobs at home. 3. I think it's fair to say that we have plenty of our own home grown "low life" in the UK, so I'm not sure we're in a position to look down our noses at people from other countries. However, I think it's fair to say that Tony Blair made a major error in lifting visa restrictions for Romanians when Romania joined the EU. Blair thought that not many Romanians would come to the UK. In the event 413,000 arrived in 2015 alone and this did fuel discontent in the UK population. Many Romanians are good hard working people, and I don't like stereotyping a nation, however, I think it's fair to say that there are significant criminal elements in the Romanian migrant population, and, like any criminal, they will go where the pickings are richest (i.e. the streets of the UK) I support immigration to our country, but I think that we should be able to decide who we want and who we don't want, and it should not be the EU that decides. In addition I want the UK to be able to choose migrants from anywhere in the world and not be forced to favour migrants from the EU. At the moment EU migrants can come to the UK to work whenever they want to under the free movement rules, but migrants from outside the EU have to go through a visa process, thus favouring EU migrants. We need immigrants and anyone that thinks that we don't is seriously deluded about the requirements to run a modern economy. However, we should be the ones that control the system, it should not be controlled by others who do not live in our country. 4. Non-EU migrants wanting to come to the UK. Well, many of these people are quite poor and they deserve to be treated with humanity and respect. However, most of them are economic migrants and not political refugees. The reasons that they want to come to the UK are, firstly, we have high levels of employment and it's easy for them to find work, even if it's in the "black" economy. In France it's very difficult for them to get work or benefits of any kind. Many of them already have family or friends in the UK, so it makes it easier for them to start a new life in the UK. In addition English is a very widely spoken language and many of the migrants speak English, which makes the UK a more attractive destination for them. However, much as I have sympathy for many of these people, they cannot just walk into a country because they want to. There are rules and regulations about migration which everyone has to adhere to. If I turned up in a boat in Canada, or the USA, or Australia, or virtually any other country, and said I was here to stay but I had no work visa or entry permit, I would, quite rightly, be put on a boat straight back to the UK. Rules are rules and economic migrants, however poor they may be, have to go through the proper procedures if they want to emigrate to the UK. Anything else invites utter chaos and is highly unfair on those migrants who have gone through the proper process in order to emigrate to the UK. However, I don't think we can really blame the EU for this particular problem, except to the extent that the EU is currently incapable of effectively policing its external borders. Hope the above provides some sort of response to your post. In any case I would like to take the opportunity to wish Leavers and Remainers across the UK, and people from anywhere else in the world, a very happy new year! |
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: December 31 2018 at 21:24 |
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(Brexit) the Lemming emigrated from the UK 18 years ago. Never regretted it. Complete joke of a country which is now the laughing stock of the civilized world. My bet is Ethiopia will be staging a rock concert for their benefit in a few years time (Pom-Aid)
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: January 01 2019 at 01:14 |
Hi Chaser, Thank you for a superb response - one of the best and most eloquently informed I've ever had on a forum. The aim of the little video clip was to highlight Junckers innebriated condition at the event rather than the event itself, although clearly this kind of thing is a blatant finger up at the masses who have to pay for it. My questions were all written with the utmost cynicism in mind and I understand clearly most of the points you made, particularly about the Euro, which should have been always obvious to a blind man from the outset given the range of difference in the EU economies and country by country work ethic. There is an argument against immigration by professionals from the likes of Romania and the poorer EU countries as well as from the 3rd world countries which I strongly support, and that is simply that by coming to us they deny their services to those in their own countries who arguably need them more than we do, and especially as they are positively encouraged to come here rather than us training up our own people to work in industries where there is a shortage of skills. I would also point out that the Roma I refer to are not ethnic Romanian. The majority of their ethnic group is based in Romania but they also exist in smaller groups throughout Europe and have done for some considerable time - hundreds of years in fact. In Romania they are universally despised by the ethnic Romanians for their lack of integration, generally anti-social behaviour and high criminal tendencies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2336124/locals-blast-crime-hit-sheffield-ghetto-where-6000-eastern-european-immigrants-have-settled-since-2012/ I would also support a sensible immigration policy to the UK but absolutely do not support the madness we have endured since Blair came to power and which shows no sign of changing anytime soon, and while I agree with your comment regarding our seemingly increasing numbers of homegrown lowlife, that in itself is surely the single most important reason as to why we shouldn't be importing even more of them.. The non EU migrants problem is obviously a sensitive issue as some are, or were undoubtedly genuine refugees according to the terms of definition given in the Dublin convention, but the Dublin Convention which has supposedly been agreed on an EU wide basis states clearly that asylum should be sought in the first safe country, and while I understand that that rule will not always be practicable, desireable or enforceable, and even blatantly flouted as in Merkels case of "Wir können das schaffen" in 2015, it nonetheless begs the question of why bother to pass such laws and agreements if certain people who have the power to do so will unilaterally interpret them to suit themselves as and when they choose. I also feel strongly that 3rd world immigration of this sort to the UK is actually an EU problem in part as the EU is clearly being used as a"back door" by illegals for entry in to the UK. Anyway, thanks again for a great response and I hope you have an enjoyable New Year.
Edited by Dougie McGee - January 01 2019 at 06:49 |
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Chaser
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Posted: January 01 2019 at 15:41 |
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[QUOTE=Dougie McGee][QUOTE=Chaser][QUOTE=Dougie McGee]
The aim of the little video clip was to highlight Junckers innebriated condition at the event rather than the event itself, although clearly this kind of thing is a blatant finger up at the masses who have to pay for it. Thanks for the kind words Dougie. Yes, I saw that Mr Juncker was unsteady on his feet in the video, but I was sure if it was intoxication or whether he was just feeling unwell, so I didn't presume. He is, of course, known to be partial to a wee drink and a smoke and so, I would imagine, the opportunity for him to imbibe at the expense of EU citizens is a real boon to him. Profligacy and waste are at the heart of the EU, as evidenced by the fact that the EU's Court of Auditors refused to sign off the EU accounts for over 22 years and the auditors continue to highlight waste and mismanagement. Meanwhile the EU's policies are leading to mass unemployment, riots, and the rise of right wing extremists across Europe. As for Tony Blair, I find his campaign for a "People's Vote" (didn't we have one of those?) rather comical, since his policies were part of the reason we find ourselves in this situation. His open door policy to Romanian migrants, when he could have put restrictions on Romanian immigration to the UK, fuelled discontent in the UK (albeit many of these immigrants arrived after Tony Blair's time in office, but it was his policy that gave the green light to the flood of migrants that later arrived). Secondly, his government's profligate public spending (remember the outgoing treasury minister's comment that "there's no money") lead, at least in part, to the austerity regime that resulted in huge dissatisfaction with the status quo. Thirdly, Tony Blair's political "spin" and particularly the Iraq war which he justified with the "dodgy dossier" seriously eroded the public's trust in politicians and resulted in them distrusting the recommendations of main stream politicians during the referendum campaign. I listened to Tony Blair's argument the other day that we should have a second vote on leaving the EU, and one of his arguments is that we should stay in the EU because leaving is complicated... Is he serious? Surely it's about what's right and not about how difficult it is. If leaving the EU is the right thing to do then we should do it regardless of how difficult it is. |
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 01:58 |
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Yes indeed to all you say. Re Tony Blair : surely one of the most evil men in modern politics. Despised by the majority of voters and seemingly quite oblivious to the scale of damage he has inflicted on both our own country and on Iraq. We can also thank him for playing a large part in the rise of Isis. If you haven't already read it, I can recommend Clarissa Dickson Wrights biography. She makes a few interesting observations about Tony Blair based on personal experience. Maybe one day he will get his rightfully deserved just desserts - we can only hope. Anyway. Cheers again. Great to talk to someone who actually has something worthwhile to say.. :)
Edited by Dougie McGee - January 02 2019 at 02:30 |
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LAM-SGC
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 02:12 |
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This is not my own political view, this is just an explanation of what certain words mean and how governments apply them, don't shoot the messenger: A refugee granted refuge in a safe country ceases to be a refugee when they then leave the country that granted them refuge to move to another country, at that point they become a migrant. The term economic migrant used to be used before to differentiate between migrants and refugees. Edited by LAM-SGC - January 02 2019 at 11:21 |
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 02:32 |
No one is going to shoot you down for that mate. It's a universally acknowledged definition and only denied by the plethora of supposedly enlightened useful idiots across the board and in certain areas of politics and the entertainment industry.
Edited by Dougie McGee - January 02 2019 at 02:35 |
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micky
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 03:17 |
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great discussion. I have no dog in the issue other than that morbid fascination with watching car crashes.. nah that is France, Train wrecks.. nah that is the US.. oh no.. airline crashes where no one walks away from.. that is the UK. We f**ked up here.. but you all topped us on this one. Trump and our right wing populism are on their way out and into the history books. Ours was a temporarily sh*tting of the bed.. there was nothing our system would allow Trump or the GOP to change the way things are going.. what is changing our country is codified in our laws.. and can't be changed via Executive Orders or stupid pointless physical barriers... but it looks like the UK decided to burn the damn thing in the attempt to perserve their ideals of nationalism.
read an interesting article about the times we are in ... and yes.. the very relation between the 3 crashes going on. Any thoughts from the UK'rs here? a lot of very good points there.. especially with what may happen here with the other shoe dropping in reaction to Trump. A 180 degree swing from right wing populism to left wing populism both of which as Trump has done to his party..and what I have sort of foreseen happening to the Democratic Party.. destroys the established parties. His points though are very spot on IMO. While it is fun to point fingers and launch internet/social media zingers calling Trump voter/Brexiteer's racists and bigots and white identity politics.. the real onus behind the surge in right wing nationalism is the vast chasm in between haves and have nots due to unregulated captialism.. which is what I think the next the decade is going to see here in the states which the rise of left wing populism here which will tear apart the Democratic Party as much as Trump and the right wing populists tore apart the Repubican party. very very fascinating to see what happening the next couple of months in the UK.. and beyond... |
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Dougie McGee
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 06:22 |
Personally I don't put much scope in much of anything Ken Clarke says as he's widely regarded as just another raving loony in this country very much like his mate Anna Soubry and a few other notables. EU issues notwithstanding, I guess one of the bottom lines in all of this is the question as to why so many people are so very pissed off with their respective governments both here, in the States and in France. I mean, if the governments of these countries were getting it right every time, then everyone would be walking about smiling wouldn't they, but they're not are they. And the argument holds water for both left and right wing view points...Bush and Blair destroyed Iraq and helped with the birth of Isis. Cameron, Obama and Sarkozy destroyed Libya and helped to give birth to the mediterranean migrant crisis from the Sub Saharan countries - something we are now starting to enjoy the benefits of here in England. . I don't even dare to imagine what Hilary Clinton and Jeremy Corbyn would get up to together if they ever got in to power but the prospect of it terrifies me....."raving loonies" doesn't even begin to describe these two.
Edited by Dougie McGee - January 02 2019 at 06:24 |
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Chaser
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 07:13 |
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[QUOTE=micky] great discussion. read an interesting article about the times we are in ... and yes.. the very relation between the 3 crashes going on. Any thoughts from the UK'rs here? I don't agree with Dougie that Ken Clarke is a "looney" but he is a well known europhile who has always passionately believed the UK should be part of the EU. I respect his position but unfortunately for him he lost the argument on this one. Even Ken now agrees that the UK will be leaving the EU. In terms of what will happen in the UK: I think that a hard Brexit now looks the most likely outcome. The Theresa May deal has got no chance. Unless the EU do what they've already said they won't do and alter the legal text of the withdrawal agreement, then her deal will be rejected by parliament. What then? The EU have said that they won't extend the article 50 process unless there is a material event in the UK (such as a second referendum). A general election is possible but unlikely in my opinion, as the tories and the DUP do not want to risk a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn. A second referendum has already been ruled out by May, but it would not solve anything anyway because the country remains split. So the default position is the only one left, which is that the UK will crash out of the European Union on 29th March with no deal. |
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Chaser
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 10:31 |
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As an appendix to the above:
Our intrepid leaders, who have so far made a complete pigs breakfast of negotiating Brexit, have belatedly begun preparations for out no deal exit on 29th March at 11pm (Greenwich Mean Time, not some nasty foreign time) The good news is that they have commissioned a ferry company to ensure supplies continue to be shipped to the UK after 29th March. Unfortunately the press have now uncovered that the ferry company actually have no ferries, and their ferry owning is more of an aspiration. They hope to have ferries by 29th March You couldn't make it up! In addition the port they intend to use can't deal with ferries and needs to be dredged. I have zero love for the EU, but I don't have much confidence in our bunch of clowns either Expect much more of this kind of fun over the next few months. It won't be dull... |
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micky
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 11:54 |
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we can relate to that.. oh yes we can... at least our national nightmare will be over soon
interesting posts guys.. thanks. @Chaser.. you do not mention not an extension of the Art. 50 process... but a revoking of it. Sure it might be poltical suicide for May to do.. but isn't she dead man walking anyway... I take it you think there is no chance she falls on her sword and in the absence of a orderly withdraw from the E.U and the potential of all the doomsday scenarios of a hard Brexit.. including a breakup of the UK .. that she does the responsible thing and revokes it. Her final words before she is crucified being.. next time.. have a parachute on before you jump off a cliff. I mean I've seen some stupid sh*t go down here in America.. but your government really took the cake on this one. Perhaps a stupid line of ignorant reasoning.. but to outside observers like myself.. it seems like the smart and responsible course and god knows it sounds like someone in your government has to the one to stand up and say.. wait just a damned minute here.. we are we doing here... Edited by micky - January 02 2019 at 11:55 |
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Mascodagama
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Posted: January 02 2019 at 12:08 |
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^ She'll never do it, more's the pity. Nor will any of that rabble, nor those in control of the party (I use the term loosely) on the other side of the House.
Edited by Mascodagama - January 02 2019 at 12:09 |
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NutterAlert wrote: