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Was 1975 the peak year of the classic prog era?

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2019 at 07:58
Originally posted by Walkscore Walkscore wrote:

Clearly the early 70s was the 'classic' era. 
...

I sincerely doubt this ... 

If you, or anyone here, spent as much time listening to something from the 80's as much as you do/did for the 70's your numbers will change. The same thing for the 90's and the 00's and the 10's.

The fact is, that we are horrible listeners, and we think that the music from this and that date is GOD, or should I say Jesus, and every one else is a fake and a bad copy ... And that is grossly unfair to a human, and his/her life, not to mention the others, that no one seems to recognize or appreciate, because only one time in the history of the world has meaning and all the other 2000 years is crap!

That is one of the reasons why some of those numbers are crap to me, and I don't pay attention to them ... the same thing happened a year or so ago, on another similar poll that showed the same thing ... and it was even suggesting that people today (younger than you or I!) thought that the bands from the 70's were better or greater, which is not quite true. Many of us had a DIRECT relationship to that music ... many of these folks today did not, and their appreciation for it, might not be as intense as it was for us THEN.

The discrepancy in this work is that it suggests that everything was the same 50 years ago, as it is today ... and it assumes that there were no "people" then, or now ... just like Soc 101 ... we're just a number ... and that number means nothing to anything. On top of it, most of these studies are horribly aimed at a bad conclusion. And history is completely ignored.


Edited by moshkito - February 26 2019 at 07:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2019 at 09:12
Yes...but also no...maybe...

*keeps thread going*

Cool

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2019 at 13:14
2020. The once and future Prog. Or so it was foretold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2019 at 16:34
Well..I would have said '74 due to Starless and Red by KC.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 03:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


YES ... there will be many and then some. The main difference is that we do not have a "record company" giving us fake numbers in order to sell something, and a Dream Theater, is not inclined and does not have to tell you that they sold 1.3 million CD's on their website and from the Amazon distributorship ... for a few of their albums a few years back!

AND, not to mention that the number of bands appears to spread out a lot of numbers, which makes it look like they are smaller ... the numbers ARE LARGER THAN EVER, however, they are also spread around a bit more, which makes it seem like less.

It is not "tough" to achieve that sort of exposure now ... what is different is that there are too many places that supposedly "support" and "love" progressive music, and in the end, they spend their time discussing their top ten songs, their top ten cigars, their top ten bands, and their top ten colors of their favorite bass guitar, and their favorite keyboard player!

WHAT brought us "progressive music" as we call it TODAY, was the very fact of the opposite kind ... it had nothing to do with the favorite this or that ... all of a sudden, the appreciation for something different was OK ... not a joke, or a stupid comment ... and this kinda went back to the Beatles and Sgt. Pepper's days, to an extent, which by 1968 and 1969, all the stupid comments and top ten comments had pretty much kinda disappeared ... or WOODSTOCK and many other great events would not have happened.

You forget one of the most important details, which I mentioned. Usually the "current" folks do not like the new things, because of their favorites. You might want to check out the listing for the worst business decisions EVER MADE, and the Beatles and Rolling Stones rank right near the top ... because some fat idiots kept thinking that no one in their right mind would get famous with dirty clothing, unkempt hair and out of tune, and bad music!

It's almost the same thing here ... we love the big 5, and we're not capable of listening in its entirety to a single album by any new band ... you can tell by the comments that they only listened to a minute here and another minute there ... because the comments are generic and do not say anything about the music or the work itself. 

AS SUCH, I doubt that in my lifetime, we will see/find new content that is meaningful and wonderful to the history of things, because we spend more time denying new artists than we kiss the old ones ... actually it was always like that ... but the "mass mentality" of the internet and "social media" is intimidating a lot of new artists into doing something different ... and until such a time as someone stands up and says ... that's enough ... up yours ... and does their own thing, we will not have anything but DAW related music that is severely short of the qualities and moments that we love dearly in all music.

I'm not sure that "a lot of time ... so many bands..." is that much of a problem. There were a lot in those days, too, and somehow you and I and others found the right album, and ended up with the right this and that. Today is the same thing ... but your (and mine's) abilities to listen to something is not as deep as it seems that ours was then ... which is not true, or the kids out on the street would not be listening to their rap boom booms so much! Even though that is not what we consider this and that and such, it still counts, as it is a listening event, that they are paying some attention to, and one day it will evolve into something else ... that's what happened to us, so we became enamored with "progressive music" ... with one exception ... we keep feeling that we died in the 80's and then took a miracle pill in the 90's to get a new kind of erection and some new bands appeared and now we're sort of limping again, so to speak ... it actually happens every 25 years or so anyway!

In the end, the material that is MEANT to be loved and enjoyed will stand up ... a lot more than we know and understand, and this has been the history of a lot of the arts ... regardless of what we know or not.

Lastly ... the biggest problem with our discussion is that the majority of the folks discussing it are not as "artistically" knowledgeable as they should be. To many of the folks here, ALL OF THIS MUSIC is just a bunch of top ten hits, and the reason why they are not more famous is because they didn't sell as much! And this is a serious problem ... Canterbury was not a music scene ... it was also a literary, theatrical and film scene ... the badly named "krautrock" was also a film, theater and literature and many arts scene. The "psychedelia" side of it was also an incredible art, film, theater and music scene ... and the worst mistake we make is ignoring the other arts ... because all we are doing is taking a song and the band out of context with its time and place, and its very important meaning ... 

Ex: hearing a neighbor kid saying that his mom and him thought "Foreign Son" was a hateful song and very disrespectful and if this were today, that band would have been disgraced and this and that ... for these folks VietNam did not happen! And the responses and political statements we all made ... were vacuous and stupid ... which is not true. All Along the Watchtower is not about crap. Wooden Ships is not either. Light My Fire is not about getting stoned. These were all the VOICES of our generation in their screams for your attention and mine, to stop this "not giving a damn" about nothing ... and only liking TV and its supposed cardboard hero's and star's.

And, my friend ... nothing has changed ... we just need newer voices ... and I'm not sure, by my listens that enough bands are standing up for meaningful comments ... even here, folks tend to think I'm just another moron ... and that what I say is stupid, when I'm standing up for mine and their voices ... in a world where we are nothing but just another minion to be wasted on the next war or cataclysmic event!
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A very passionate response and you make a good point about modern artist album sales – I stupidly forgot about Rush and Dream Theater because I don’t really follow them. Both those artists have succeeded in the States and hailing from the American continent clearly helped in their relative levels of success. The contemporary prog artists that I listen to most haven’t achieved that level of success. Indeed some would probably struggle to be recognised in the States because their music often has a very clear social comment that would not go down well. They also comment on the state of prog – if you haven’t heard Supper’s Off by The Tangent it is worth a listen, ideally in its original version which named the likes of Genesis and The Who as bands that the masses flock to listen to live while contemporary artists struggle to afford touring at all.

I hope you are right that prog is in good shape. I can’t remember the first album that I discovered in my youth that I loved so much that I kept playing it obsessively – it would have been a classical music album because that was my first love. But from then on I was always looking for the next album that had the same impact on me and that is what brought me to prog in the early 70s – the complexity of the albums is what had gave me that. In those days you could talk and empathise with most people about those artists because they were that well known. I lost touch with prog as it declined in popularity but had a brief foray into neo prog in the 80s and then after a prog-less 90s I rediscovered it in the 21st century and followed it more avidly than ever but I wouldn’t say that these artists are well known. Some of these artists are part-time musicians – Thomas Thielen and Andy Tillison are university lecturers. The people I talk to nowadays have never heard of these artists – as one of the UK’s more respectable newspapers commented recently, Steven Wilson, the prog rocker topping the charts without anybody noticing. Sadly, the same article notes that prog is seen as “associated in the wider consciousness with po-faced ageing males, interminable noodling guitar solos and daft symphonies about space”.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 05:10
Realised that I shouldn't have included Rush in the contemporary prog category - it just seems like they are< ="text/" async="" ="//cardinal.net/1fa16f6ccbee745a0c.js">
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 06:07
I'm not a statistician, nor are my mathematical skills worthy of this sort of thing, but I sometimes wonder if some "statistical adjustments" are warranted when comparing modern era prog albums versus the classics of the 1970s. There is quite a bit of difference between the music industries of both eras.

Baseball statisticians do this a lot to compare players across eras. I wonder if similar methods could be applied to other areas that have some statistical component?

One more digression (which maybe should have its own thread):
I sometimes wonder what the 1970s would have been like if the Internet as we know it today existed back then. Lots of bands today can release their music online without a record company, sometimes without performing it live, all while having day jobs. This wasn't necessarily the case in the 1970s. What kinds of treasures (and probably duds too) could have seen the light of day if some artists had been given the chance that's available today? Sometimes timing is everything. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 06:26
Originally posted by CJG CJG wrote:

... Sadly, the same article notes that prog is seen as “associated in the wider consciousness with po-faced ageing males, interminable noodling guitar solos and daft symphonies about space”.


And the magazine/place that allowed that to be published needs to die, and be forgotten quickly ... they are NOT about the arts, and they are not about the work a musician, or an artist, tries so hard to put forth for many of us.

And that writer, knows as much about music as a mule in the field ... taking a crap without even knowing it while they are eating. 

And ... these kind of comments and people ... are what we listen to and respect? At the very least I stand for the arts and the music and the artist ... that mule is standing for nothing. He wouldn't know noodling from what's coming out of his crap trap! And he obviously has NEVER heard any other music than the 50 top ten songs he has on his iPud! Might as well go around saying that Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky all spent theior whole life noodling and that their symphonies are twice longer than they need to be ... I'm sorry ... that person has no right to tell me, or you, that your piece of music has to be this and that long, without this and that in it.

People like him are just like the moron that said that Tangerine Dream (1975 or around there) sounded like a washing machine ... and he obviously had NEVER EVER before in his life heard a washing machine ... so my friend on the air on a commercial radio station played sound effects of washing machines, Lou Reed's album and more noise stuff (early Guru Guru!!!) ... and asked the audience ... be honest ... do you have so much wax in your ears that you don't know the difference between a washing machine and Tangerine Dream?

We are cowards, and sometimes have no ethics and desire to support something that is not "socially" acceptable ... and while some admins are very good, I'm not sure that all of them are standing up for the art it is ... and that's what hurts the most ... music, like life ... NEVER DIES ... and be it "progressive", "jazz", "classical", "rap", "totalsheepdip" ... it doesn't matter ... it will always outlive us and folks that have no respect for the human spirit and its creativity except the ones that are ordained into some sort of .... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 07:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by CJG CJG wrote:

... Sadly, the same article notes that prog is seen as “associated in the
wider consciousness with po-faced ageing males, interminable noodling guitar
solos and daft symphonies about space”.
<p ="msonormal"=""><o:p></o:p>



And the magazine/place that allowed that to be published needs to die, and be forgotten quickly ... they are NOT about the arts, and they are not about the work a musician, or an artist, tries so hard to put forth for many of us.

And that writer, knows as much about music as a mule in the field ... taking a crap without even knowing it while they are eating. 

And ... these kind of comments and people ... are what we listen to and respect? At the very least I stand for the arts and the music and the artist ... that mule is standing for nothing. He wouldn't know noodling from what's coming out of his crap trap! And he obviously has NEVER heard any other music than the 50 top ten songs he has on his iPud! Might as well go around saying that Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky all spent theior whole life noodling and that their symphonies are twice longer than they need to be ... I'm sorry ... that person has no right to tell me, or you, that your piece of music has to be this and that long, without this and that in it.

People like him are just like the moron that said that Tangerine Dream (1975 or around there) sounded like a washing machine ... and he obviously had NEVER EVER before in his life heard a washing machine ... so my friend on the air on a commercial radio station played sound effects of washing machines, Lou Reed's album and more noise stuff (early Guru Guru!!!) ... and asked the audience ... be honest ... do you have so much wax in your ears that you don't know the difference between a washing machine and Tangerine Dream?

We are cowards, and sometimes have no ethics and desire to support something that is not "socially" acceptable ... and while some admins are very good, I'm not sure that all of them are standing up for the art it is ... and that's what hurts the most ... music, like life ... NEVER DIES ... and be it "progressive", "jazz", "classical", "rap", "totalsheepdip" ... it doesn't matter ... it will always outlive us and folks that have no respect for the human spirit and its creativity except the ones that are ordained into some sort of .... 


Actually it was a very good article that was not being critical of the art form or the artist concerned but, by quoting as I did, out of context, has provoked another strong reaction from you. Of course that is what the media, and particularly the gutter press and its internet equivalents, do all the time. So on this occasion I am at fault for misinformation/ trying to provoke a reaction. I shall leave it at that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dopeydoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2019 at 09:24
My master pieces era is 69-75. A time of invention, a time of sound perfection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2019 at 05:28
Hi,

On another set of posts in this board, there is a thread about films in an era ... and you will find that all eras had great films as well. My comment was, that no era was any less important than the other, and they all had great things released.

For us to say that the 70's are better than the 80's and/or worse than the 90's is a bit weird ... basically it's as if you got married had a kid, had to pay for the house ... and could not afford as many albums ... and then you say that the music died, or that the 70's was the age of Jesus!

It's a false assumption, and idea. The list of "releases" merely shows how much stuff we did not see, or listen to ... but no one is taking that into consideration.

We really need to get past this ... literature, film, theater, all the arts ... did not die in the 80's or 90's ... your perception of "progressive" waned in that time for other/better reasons in life ... it's quite alright, and important ... but as you can see in film ... it didn't die, and it was MORE INTERNATIONAL than ever ... which is the one thing that we are not accepting very well. The listing and numbers that were generating is so ethnocentric, that it is not even funny. Pretty soon, the word will be God is ..................... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2019 at 05:48
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
On another set of posts in this board, there is a thread about films in an era ... and you will find that all eras had great films as well. My comment was, that no era was any less important than the other, and they all had great things released.
Of course all eras has greatness but if one does not go complete cultural relativist its easy to find plenty of reasons and make a logical argument why 60's 70's is more of a golden era of cinema (alhough I wasn't alive to experience it) compared to our contemporary era of cinema - whilst in the middle of it (we're in the golden era of series though) - but you changed from genre to medium anyway. There's good art in/for all ages but where you'll find the highest art will never be the same and I don't believe every era-or approach to art is equal... just because. Anyway 70's prog will be considered the classic era because it will always be the "prototype"-or types for what it represents to us. If something made later will be viewed upon as somehow "greater" than the "original" - it won't change what art belongs to which era. Classic rock 'n roll is a mid-fifties thing... doesn't matter if it turns out Stay Cats actually outdid the real thing in the 80's (which they probably didn't)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2019 at 00:22
1974
ELP were on a massive world tour before releasing a fantastic triple live album
Genesis were inspired on Lamb
Yes were re-defining the sypmh rock genre on Relayer
King Crimson were pushing to the limit what could be done at the guitar end of prog
there were plenty of other prog bands peaking around this time as well

75 was the year when it was just becoming a case of 'what next?' Gabriel and Fripp were about to take a break which as it turned out were excellent career choices as their reputations survived the punk backlash.
Genesis seemed to foresee the Neo prog revival about 8 years early with Trick which is absolutely brilliant but not exactly ground breaking. Wish You Were Here is one of my favourite albums but again were Floyd pushing forward really? It was just beginning to get tired. 74 was the year that bands pushed it as far as it could go IMO.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2019 at 02:08
The more I think about it, the more it seems like there were "two peaks" for the classic prog era:

One in 1972-1973 when all those bands were peaking with their records.

The other in 1974-1975 when it seems like the popularity of those first few years had wained with the general public, and key players were leaving/putting projects on hold, etc.

There's no real hard and fast line it's so damn blurry, even though twas only 6-9 years lol.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2019 at 06:08
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
Of course all eras has greatness but if one does not go complete cultural relativist its easy to find plenty of reasons and make a logical argument why 60's 70's is more of a golden era of cinema (alhough I wasn't alive to experience it) compared to our contemporary era of cinema - whilst in the middle of it (we're in the golden era of series though) - but you changed from genre to medium anyway.
...

A perfect top ten comment ... no one that is "progressive" is intelligent enough to know THEATER, FILM, PAINTING, LITERATURE or any of the arts. People that do prog, talk prog, have to be stupid and uneducated, and only follow the rules that are posted ... somewhere!

I can see it now ... you only see Marvel comics movies. All the other movies don't mean nothing ... and of course, music is in the same world and country ... so it must be crap also.

GET CE-REAL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2019 at 08:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
Of course all eras has greatness but if one does not go complete cultural relativist its easy to find plenty of reasons and make a logical argument why 60's 70's is more of a golden era of cinema (alhough I wasn't alive to experience it) compared to our contemporary era of cinema - whilst in the middle of it (we're in the golden era of series though) - but you changed from genre to medium anyway.
...

A perfect top ten comment ... no one that is "progressive" is intelligent enough to know THEATER, FILM, PAINTING, LITERATURE or any of the arts. People that do prog, talk prog, have to be stupid and uneducated, and only follow the rules that are posted ... somewhere!

I can see it now ... you only see Marvel comics movies. All the other movies don't mean nothing ... and of course, music is in the same world and country ... so it must be crap also.

GET CE-REAL!
Yes spot on! You see right through me. How do you do it? The latter part I got but I failed to make any sense-or meaning out of the former part. But it seems you were so impressed by what I wrote that you place it in your top ten of "perfect comments". Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2019 at 18:29
72 or 73 the peak. 75 saw some bands with no album or a weaker album than other years
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2019 at 19:47
s OK but lots of good stuff today.  If you want to limit yourself to '70' stuff that certainly makes things easier for u but you don't know what you are missing.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2019 at 23:56
1973. SEBTP and TFTO the pinnacle of symph prog...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2019 at 09:17
I too feel the earlier seventies were the peak of Prog.
It's massively unfair (Not that anyone here says this) the perception of Punk killing Prog.
That's just a lazy get out clause for journalists to establish narratives.
Punk was a strong turn in fashion and direction but even if it never occurred the glory days of Prog were on the wane by 1975.
King Crimson had split. ELP seemed dormant. Gabriel had left Genesis. Even Daevid Allen had fled Gong!
The remaining groups made strong efforts, and some acts kept it going through the decade, but it seemed to have reached its glory days.
Maybe more Prog music is being made by new bands today but there just doesn't seem to be the public imagination to show any interest outside of the faithful.

Edited by AZF - March 03 2019 at 09:18
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