Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - BS Sabotage Prog?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

BS Sabotage Prog?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Whamdaddy View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 04 2019
Location: WIsconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whamdaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: BS Sabotage Prog?
    Posted: April 10 2019 at 07:34
New to the Prog Archives universe and am noticing that "prog" has a very broad scope here, so was wondering as Black Sabbath is my favorite band would you guys consider their album Sabatage to be prog. I think it falls under the parameters on here anyway. 
The Wham Daddy
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 16514
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 07:40
I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?
she's my little rock n roll, yeah....
Back to Top
Whamdaddy View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 04 2019
Location: WIsconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whamdaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 07:55
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?

I would say that sabotage starts out as a thrash album, Hole in the sky is one of there harder edge songs for sure, but the rest of the album, including the great "The Writ" has many prog elements including layering, reverb many different changes in each song, lyrics, and studio tricks along with a very trippy production that makes it seem to me anyway as very prog leaning. I see SBS as a more straightforward hard rock album IMO. Maybe lyrically SBS has some prog in it but I see that album as a precursor to what was happening later in the decade with VH and NWOBHM
The Wham Daddy
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover Team

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 5551
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 08:19
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.


First thrash album? No, but maybe Symptom of the Universe could be proto-thrash. 
(but so is Queen's Stone Cold Crazy LOL)
Back to Top
Whamdaddy View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 04 2019
Location: WIsconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whamdaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 08:38
not sure if I am into the whole proto thing for any genre
it either is or isn't, symptom and Hole are not thrash but harder metal, inspiring thrash musicians maybe, but pigeon holing BS into any tight genre is useless, probably, but prog does not seem to be a tight genre, very inclusive
The Wham Daddy
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 16514
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 12:14
Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?

I would say that sabotage starts out as a thrash album, Hole in the sky is one of there harder edge songs for sure, but the rest of the album, including the great "The Writ" has many prog elements including layering, reverb many different changes in each song, lyrics, and studio tricks along with a very trippy production that makes it seem to me anyway as very prog leaning. I see SBS as a more straightforward hard rock album IMO. Maybe lyrically SBS has some prog in it but I see that album as a precursor to what was happening later in the decade with VH and NWOBHM


Interesting. Now I want to spin it again. It's been a while, so thanks for the reminder.Smile
she's my little rock n roll, yeah....
Back to Top
AZF View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Wirral
Status: Online
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 14:12
It gets dismissed for its cover but IMO Technical Ecstacy is the worst of Ozzy period.
Sabotage is a great album and there could have been a great compilation of Proggy Black Sabbath tracks back in the day.
"The Writ" from this album and "Spiral Architect" from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Even "Megalomania" from Sabotage.
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover Team

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 5551
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 14:39
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

It gets dismissed for its cover but IMO Technical Ecstacy is the worst of Ozzy period.
Sabotage is a great album and there could have been a great compilation of Proggy Black Sabbath tracks back in the day.
"The Writ" from this album and "Spiral Architect" from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Even "Megalomania" from Sabotage.

I've never heard anyone dissing or dismissing the album because of the cover (but then again BS album covers are not great or good, attractive, interesting, anyway). 

It's also quite loved and appreciated, I've rarely seen or heard complaining (on the music that is) either.  
Back to Top
Whamdaddy View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 04 2019
Location: WIsconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whamdaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2019 at 16:14
I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible

I think every album has at least one sort of prog offering
BS-Behind the wall of sleep/sleeping village
Paranoid-War Pigs/ hand of doom
MOR-Into the void (heard live by the all original members at "99" ozzfest)
Vol. 4 -Side 2
SBS, Spiral architect
Sabotage- Writ/megalomania
The Wham Daddy
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 5553
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2019 at 11:54
Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible
 

Disagree. Another great Sabbath album.

As usual, Geezer is in fine form.

Back to Top
Tom Ozric View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 13851
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2019 at 14:23
Sabbath * Funk = All Moving Parts !!
Back to Top
omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2019 at 15:12
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible
 

Disagree. Another great Sabbath album.

As usual, Geezer is in fine form.

 

Yep.  There's some good songs on TE.  Perhaps it's uneven album.  
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 8320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2019 at 06:16
Hi,

For my tastes, and I have several BS albums, the band is not progressive. Yes, it does have bits and pieces of material here and there that makes it interesting, but all in all, it is NOT a progressive band, and it's character in concert pretty much made it clear ... this was a rock band, loud and louder and more often than not it seemed like it was there to support Ozzy, although the show I saw at the Hollywood Paladium, he was so far out of it, that you might as well be supporting the lights and the technicians ... Ozzy sounded horrible and sang even worse!

The worst progressive, or prog, concert I have ever seen, was NEVER EVER that bad, and completely out of character with the material on hand, although I'm pretty sure that someone will immediately mention one or two of them ... but just the thought of KC screwing up on stage and not being good ... is scary ... very scary, but as many live albums and shows are around, you can't really say it is that bad.

In the days of the bootlegs, the BS ones, were not in the top 10 at all ... more like the bottom 10 because the band was not very well known for doing a great concert at all!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 13365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2019 at 15:57
Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 3158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2019 at 17:11
There's definitely some prog in Black Sabbath's music and "sabotage" is certainly no exception. Let's not forget that a certain caped crusader appeared on their previous album. Tongue
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 13727
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2019 at 02:00
Sabbath are a heavy metal band. Here and there are some progressive moments, but that doesn't earn them a prog badge, not even proto prog metal IMO.

They are however a fantastic band, and Sabotage, for me, is their best album. I love every twisted and demented minute of it. Someone mentioned the often maligned Technical Ecstasy. I don't think it's that bad. A bit uneven maybe, but I enjoy it more than Never Say Die.

I'm going to put my balls on the line here, and say I would actually rather listen to both Dio fronted albums than any of the Ozzy albums, not including Sabotage...
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 5553
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.
 

Great post, Richard. Big fan of Ward and Downey. 
Back to Top
verslibre View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 5553
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2019 at 12:55
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'm going to put my balls on the line here, and say I would actually rather listen to both Dio fronted albums than any of the Ozzy albums, not including Sabotage...
 

Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Dehumanizer are three of my favorite Sabbath albums. Dio's my favorite vocalist, so that also makes him my favorite Sabbath vocalist. Wink
Back to Top
PROGMAN View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 03 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 2654
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PROGMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2019 at 06:45
Most of their albums have elements of Prog but just about and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath I think is probably the Proggiest , post Ozzy albums not as much so. 
CYMRU AM BYTH
Back to Top
dr wu23 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 11487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2019 at 11:20
I started college in Sept of '69....I recall buying Zep, Sabbath, Uriah Heep, etc...don't recall thinking of any of them as prog....the only album I had a little later  ..Spring of '70 ...was ITCOTCK....that seemed far different from the other things I owned...though even then I don't recall the term prog being used often.
I never considered my Moody Blues, Traffic,  or Procol Harum lp's as prog either. 

I'm getting old...I just realized the reference was to Sabotage,,, and not the first Sabbath lp....Embarrassed
but at any rate I have never thought of Sabbath as 'proggy'...though there are songs here and there that might fit the bill.


Edited by dr wu23 - May 16 2019 at 11:25
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.358 seconds.