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progaardvark 
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 Posted: October 16 2021 at 09:05 |
 Logan wrote:
^ It's quite Dadaist. I feel like it could go in a museum. If Pedro were willing, I'd quite like to do an art exhibit with him in a glass cubicle speaking his words (a kind of performance art where he is not engaging with the audience but as a spectacle piece). And I am being utterly serious. |
That's a really neat idea! The only thing it's missing is about a thousand rolls of paper towels. I'd go and see that.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: October 16 2021 at 09:30 |
For my personal tastes i would arrange them into an icosahedron so that each album appeared on its own side to create this geometric shape.
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: October 16 2021 at 12:00 |
moshkito wrote:
Sacro_Porgo wrote:
... I didn't use the right word their, my apologies. Efficiency's not really my issue with it. It just feels aimless to me. I understand that's the point. I guess I just don't like it. It sounds to me what I imagine would happen if Robert Fripp started telling everyone to play as minimally and aimlessly as possible in a more or less random fashion, which frankly is about what I imagine having happened. These are all excellent musicians, but the result doesn't do anything more for me than spa music. It's soothing I suppose, even pretty at times, but as far as King Crimson improvisations go I find most everything done by the 72-74 lineup much more comelling. |
Hi,
I'm not sure, and that's just me thinking and NOT using Ian's words, but a lot of "progressive music" depended on moments that were improvised (at least in rehearsal) and were, eventually developed. This would be a normal pattern on stage with actors, and very likely and possible with a band.
"Aimless" is a funny thing, and one of the best exercises for acting, which needs to be done in music more than we probably know, is to work it until it feels totally aimless. Why? Easy! WE THINK that it is this or that and what the actor/actress is doing means this or that, and the chances that the actors felt that way is minimal, and not likely, but they know that venturing beyond the "fourth wall" is a hopeless exercise, since audiences also differ on different nights!
The funny/weird thing is that learning to work "aimless" into your acting, or music, helps you interpret notes and music better. All of a sudden, you have a much deeper feeling for a note or set of notes, that allows for an interpretation that makes sense to the actor or musician.
But, "aimless" from an audience, or personal point of view is hard to take, and I think that most stage folks can not worry themselves about what an audience thinks, or they will never get anything done ... you can not satisfy everyone ... and when it comes to art, it's all about you, and your life, not the audience's. What ends up as aimless for you is not aimless for me, or others, and while I don't think that is a problem, the main issue is, that it creates arguments that are mostly silly ... we're not the art ... we're reflecting what we want onto it, and that is not going to help resolve anything. The Mona Lisa will still be seeing us as you and I leave the room!
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Great. It's impressive to play "aimless" improv. I'm still not moved by it, and I still consider it filler.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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TheLionOfPrague
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 16:08 |
Logan wrote:
I have some issue with the whole notion of just deserts when it comes to how people generally rate (an amalgamation) albums. Sure some individuals are unfair, but it's a top-rated list, not as some at this forum have seemed to think a most significant to Prog list. At rateyourmusic, which is a general music site with a huge number of genres to peruse and highlight in the charts, I wouldn't say they have self-appointed high priests of Prog (not that I'd really say the same here either, this is better thought of as a coven ;) ), yet that general audience does not favour ELP albums either. Two sites with different systems, neither of which place ELP albums highly. ELP does better here in the ranking than there. I do agree that the albums generally seem flawed, and I think that ELP was showy in their way doesn't help. ELP dated badly more than many other classic prog bands for me. As one PA person once put it, "You just had to be there". Well, lots of us weren't, and even if we were, that doesn't mean we liked it then, or if we did, still do. I used to like ELP more than I do now. |
Rateyourmusic is a paradise for hipsters, it's not very representative of mainstream tastes. The Police are rated worse than ELP and they were EXTREMELY popular. Queen are rated better tan both ELP and The Police but nowhear near the highest rated artists and they are, well, extremely popular would be an understatement. They are one of the biggest musical acts in history, up there with the likes of Beatles, Elvis, Beethoven, Mozart, Michael Jackson and Sinatra.
TheEliteExtremophile wrote:
Rick1 wrote:
Anyway, it still seems that it's hip to bash ELP - lol! Seriously, any of their albums up to Works Vol. II deserve more praise from the self-appointed high priests of prog... |
I have to disagree. Every single one of ELP's studio albums has at least one massive glaring flaw, with the possible exception of their self-titled. ELP were great at big, flashy showpieces (Karn Evil 9, Tarkus, etc.) but often struggled to fill out the runtime of an album with anything worthwhile.
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I disagree. I think, for instance, King Crimson has more filler than ELP in their albums in general.
I don't think ELP has more filler in general than other big names in prog. Not saying their albums were perfect, but in their early years I think only Are you Ready Eddy?, Tank and Benny the Bouncer are sort of weakish and they're pretty decent and not worse than the worst songs of other bands. Abbadon's Bolero I think is not very interesting, but again, you can say the same about songs or parts of songs by other bands. After 1976 it's a different story, but in any case, the criticism would be their peak was short-lived.
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 16:50 |
TheLionOfPrague wrote:
Logan wrote:
I have some issue with the whole notion of just deserts when it comes to how people generally rate (an amalgamation) albums. Sure some individuals are unfair, but it's a top-rated list, not as some at this forum have seemed to think a most significant to Prog list. At rateyourmusic, which is a general music site with a huge number of genres to peruse and highlight in the charts, I wouldn't say they have self-appointed high priests of Prog (not that I'd really say the same here either, this is better thought of as a coven ;) ), yet that general audience does not favour ELP albums either. Two sites with different systems, neither of which place ELP albums highly. ELP does better here in the ranking than there. I do agree that the albums generally seem flawed, and I think that ELP was showy in their way doesn't help. ELP dated badly more than many other classic prog bands for me. As one PA person once put it, "You just had to be there". Well, lots of us weren't, and even if we were, that doesn't mean we liked it then, or if we did, still do. I used to like ELP more than I do now. |
Rateyourmusic is a paradise for hipsters, it's not very representative of mainstream tastes. The Police are rated worse than ELP and they were EXTREMELY popular. Queen are rated better tan both ELP and The Police but nowhear near the highest rated artists and they are, well, extremely popular would be an understatement. They are one of the biggest musical acts in history, up there with the likes of Beatles, Elvis, Beethoven, Mozart, Michael Jackson and Sinatra. |
Maybe they are the high priests of hipster prog when it comes to music labeled with the progressive rock genre. If you see and would share a more mainstream chart from an other music site based on user ratings that includes Prog, then I'd be interested to see how ELP does in that. Good to compare a variety of sources when it comes to evaluating general opinions. A variety of sources is a good rule of thumb not just when it comes to the self-appointed high priests of Prog, but also the warlocks of doo-wop, the coven of crunk, the high lamas of hip-hop, the mullahs of muzak, the imams of indie, the gurus of garage, the rabbis of rap, the ministers of metal and even the sultans of swing.
"
No matter how it is generally rated at whatever site (be it ProgArchives or RateYourMusic or Disco Emporium), that doesn't make lower or higher placement more fair or unfair since it's just a popularity thing based on the user's preferences whether or not the music is generally popular or not, and people can appreciate something as they like. Some unfairness does come into play often, so I mean as a general principle.
PA has algorithms that affect ranking, I wanted to compare it with a different site that works quite differently. If one finds one music site that covers various music and ELP ranks high in their popularity list (and the way its done seems fair), then I'd have no problem with that. Just because I don't much like ELP does not mean that I think others should feel the same way. I appreciate ELP's significance no matter how much or little I like it.
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 17:12
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 18:32 |
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO.
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 18:51 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
I know we went into this at very long before, Lorenzo, but the usefulness to me often is when you use filters. For instance, is this progressive rock list worse than PA's? That's when I filter it by progressive rock as genre. https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/exc:live,archival/#results
If PA was prog and rap site, you might not like the list either, but if you filter for one....If people can find a general music ratings chart from a site with many user ratings, I'd be interested.
I do use the general all music genres list sometimes when filtering by year, but I am more likely to search by various descriptors. I just don't know much of its potential you have explored when it comes to using the filters for the charts. Even at PA I tend to use the chart with filters.
You might remember this discussion before. From CLICK
Sad neither of our perspectives seem to have been shifted by the other in that time despite our attempts at writing compelling arguments or just sharing our perspectives. I like to think people make progress through conversation and careful consideration of the others thoughts.
Logan wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Personally, I consider RYM's ranking to be completely arbitrary and worthless. When I read the chart of RYM's top 20 (or top 120) albums, the only thought I have is that it lacks any logic, other than representing fan groups, starting with Radiohead. Incidentally, I would like to point out that the Italian groups are completely absent. |
It represents a collection of individual opinions based on what the raters know and like (it's rate YOUR music). The logic is that it is calculated based on an amalgamation of user's ratings (and it has many, many users). Of course it's going to attract some kinds of users more than others.
Whatever you think of Radiohead (and many at PA have loved Radiohaead), many people do love the band's albums, and of course that is the general music chart. I happen to like OK Computer a lot as well, and love the fifth choice, The Velvet Underground & Nico. What I find rather interesting is how well progressive music is represented in the general music chart (in the top 20, I have heard all of those but three and own most of that 17). What would you expect in such a list which collates ratings from users? And I guess it just doesn't have a strong Italian user-base, but whatever the general ranking, that database still contains way more Italian music than this site does as it is a general music site, and I have found way more Italian albums that I wanted to look into there than here, and I don't even visit there that often (nor am I member), but I am more likely to use their database as a resource than PA's.
Just in case it's not clear, while I decided to add the ratings for these albums in my original post, rateyourmusic played no part in my choosing these acts. I decided on them, then used PA to determine which albums to include of the acts I had opted for -- quite a few I knew were the lowest rated already at PA (while discounting some according to my criteria). Then decided to check and those ratings with RYM (I was interested to see how PA and RYM compare when it comes to the ratings and ranking of the albums of each act in this list of mine). I would trust the rankings/ overall ratings at RYM on those as much as PA. But such comparison wasn't the purpose of the poll (just thought some might find it interesting).
I find RYM to be a useful resource, and I have for a long time. It has been useful as a resource when suggesting and adding bands and albums to PA (in coordination with some other sites). I like the multi-genre album tagging, and find the custom chart useful because of the way I can search genres, and there are so many more tags at RYM for music of interest to me (it is a more general music site). PA has the limitation of categorising all albums by a band in one category. It's easier for me to discover "psychedelic folk" albums from the 60s and 70s at RYM, for instance, so that will be of more use to me than trying to find those at PA. And if you're interested in Italian acts, you can search for those. I don't care much about PA's top 100 general chart (with no filters of my own) or RYM's, in both cases, the charts I care about are customised. Since my tastes extend beyond Prog music, I wouldn't want to limit myself to a Prog-based site.
By the way, looking up the progressive rock chart at RYM, Italian Prog does not fare as well as in PA, Storia di un Minuto is the first Italian one in the list at number 71. What fares much better at RYM is Krautrock. Can's Tago Mago is at number 7 at RYM, and at PA it doesn't make the top 250. Wyatt's Rock Bottom is at number 19 at RYM and at 61 at PA in the all-time progressive rock charts.
What about when comparing the ranking for PFMs album on the album page at PA and RYM. Well it places Storia di un Minuto as the number one album at a 3.85 average with 2, 392 ratings and 51 reviews. PA puts Per un Amico at number one with 4.41 and 1648 ratings. I prefer Storia di un Minuto. I find RYM average ratings and rankings for acts to be no less valuable than ProgArchives, in fact for my general music research purposes, I find RYM's more valuable. And when it comes to their Progressive Music chart, it actually fits my tastes better.
The general audiences are rather different, and as someone said here, RYM tends to attract more hipsters. t will have attracted many who do share similar tastes. I suppose if you spent time in their forums, you'd get a better idea of people there (I haven't).
For me the RYM charts has been a useful reference tool, but it depends what one is using it for. I've discovered quite a lot of new-to-me albums thanks to going through custom charts at RYM and have found it more useful as a research tool than PA's charts for quite a few years (I prefer its search engines, prefer the interfaces, and find it more stable).
I also like the list that people come up with at RYM, such as this, which just came up with a google search: https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Edward_Kelly/italian_albums_in_rym_top_5000/
EDIT: there is something of a learning curve when it comes to using the charts effectively, as well as other aspects of the site, as a means to discover many types of music. There are a huge number of genre tags to choose from when customising the charts to find the kinds of music you are most interested in. Be it Vietnamese Classical music, Algerian chaabi, or Italo-disco, and I have found it to be a useful guide (especially since I am interested in much more than the music we have in PA). I've used it for looking up electroacoustic progressive electronic music, for instance. The top ranked one of any genre/genres may not be my taste, but I will find ones that will interest me if I put some time into it.
I personally wouldn't see much point in focusing on the general music chart list because I use it as a research tool to look for specific kinds of music, sometimes also from specific years and countries. I like its filters more than PA for discovering albums, and as I said, that it categorises by the album.
Rather than how albums are ranked, what's more important to me at RYM is if the albums have been tagged well with multiple genres.
Anyway, interesting though such discussion is, and I'm happy to go off on any tangents (I care most about the conversation even when making polls), how RYM rates music was not what this topic was about, nor did RYM determine my choices (it was a little helpful in discounting some albums though, since their discography list may offer more info than there). That said, I would like to better understand the logic behind your post as I feel I must be missing something in your thought process.
It might seem disloyal for me to be extolling what are to me the virtues and advantages of RYM, especially as a collab here, and I've put plenty of work into this site and none there, but what I like best about PA is the community and the fora.
I'm guessing you didn't know or like any album off my list enough to choose one. Shame I missed the Robert Wyatt when making my list, perhaps you would have voted for that. |
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 19:07
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 19:12 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
You sound like a cranky old man. You write reviews here about music you just don't get.
So what if other people like other things? I love RYM a lot. I have discovered infinite amounts of new music on that site. Sure the charts don't reflect my tastes either but who cares really.
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 19:35 |
I forgot this conversation I had with Lorenzo about RYM which does mention the progressive rock charts (those vary depending on if its genre or influence or both) CLICK
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Logan wrote:
1) I have found it interesting how at the Rate Your Music chart, using progressive rock as a filter, Thick as a Brick is at number 14 and three Can albums are in the top 10. As someone posted in Prog Archive's forum, RYM tends to appeal to hipsters. At PA, not only do no Can albums appear in the top 250 "all categories" albums chart, but neither does any Krautrock (the PA chart seems rather too "vanilla" to me to be of much personal interest).
2) I personally like how Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom makes the top 20 at Rate Your Music (that could be my number one album), and Soft Machine's Third, Faust's IV and two Neu! albums make RYM's top 30. My tastes are not very conventional by Prog standards.
3) I'm not big on much symphonic prog (I hardly ever listen to Genesis or Yes), my favourite Pink Floyd albums tend to be pre-Dark Side of the Moon, and regarding Rush, while I liked the band as a teenager, I haven't really been into it since (a Rush-head friend got me into it then put me off it).
4) My favourite album in PA's top 20 is Pawn Hearts, and seeing Wobbler in the top 20 looks weird to me (a 2017 album up against all those classics sticks out like sore thumb to me, and I haven't heard it in full so I can't judge the music for myself).
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5) My personal list would be very different from the top 250 albums at PA. I don't think people are wrong to enjoy Thick as Brick more than I do anymore than I think it's wrong for some people not to enjoy the RIO, Canterbury, Zeuhl, Acid Folk, Krautrock, Progressive Electronic and Indo-Prog/ Raga Rock "sub-genres" as much as I do. If I believed that my tastes represented some kind of greater objective reality, then I would think that Close to the Edge is highly overrated. That album has never personally struck me as "great".
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6) Perhaps I'd give Thick as Brick maybe a 3 or 3.5 right now based on memory. It's not an album that I was ever wowed by, but it's been decades since I last listened to it in full (I used to find it a slog, though I loved parts of it) and so I wouldn't consider rating it for the site without listening to it in full again.
7) My favourite Jethro Tull may be Stand Up, which would get 4 stars from me, but still wouldn't crack my personal top 250 albums (and I still like Jethro Tull, but just rarely gets listened to at all as I'm more into other music). |
Logan, you're not alone.
I've highlighted some of the points in your talk, where you take a clear position on the records chart. I agree on all these points, except for these small variations:
1) I totally agree - anyway, three Can albums in the top 10 are too many. 2) Rock Bottom is surely in my top ten. i know too little Neu and Faust to express an evaluation, but possibly they are not inclused in my top 50. I prefer eclectic prog. 3) I like expecially The Piper and Saucerful and Wish You Were Here and Animals. But it's not easy to me to find a great masterpiece in these album... My ideas on PF are not clear. 4) I totally agree, even for me Pawn Herts is my fave in the top 20. 5) I totally agree: I dont consider CTTE a real masterpiece, It's close to a masterpiece only the first side. I prefer CTTE over TAAB, but CTTE is surely not in my top 10 or 20 or... I dont know his position. 6) I totally agree, I've put three stars to TAAB in my review. 7) My fave JT album possibly is Aqualung, then Songs from the Wood, Minstrel, Stand Up etc.
PS PROG CHART ON RYM is very very bad!
in the top 10 there are 4 Pink Floyd 3 Can 2 King Crimson 1 Yes.
How is possible? only three groups?? PF + Can 7 album /10? It's not serious. |
But I'm with sillypuppy, I actually don't really care that much about how things are ranked at PA or RYM (it's just a mild interest when it relates to something else I'm interested in). That said, I have discovered many great for me albums when using multiple filters at RYM (I don't use it so much for looking for prog). Like in this case, I was just using RYM as a comparison point for how PA ranks ELP albums. I've heard people complain about how unfair ELP's ranking is at PA, and I'm showing that ELP fares worse still at RYM in the progressive rock as genre chart. I don't know how well it ranks at other sites that have user-based music charts. It was just meant as an example. I really don't care much at all about PA's or RYM's top 20.
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 19:48
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TheLionOfPrague
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 19:47 |
Logan wrote:
TheLionOfPrague wrote:
Logan wrote:
I have some issue with the whole notion of just deserts when it comes to how people generally rate (an amalgamation) albums. Sure some individuals are unfair, but it's a top-rated list, not as some at this forum have seemed to think a most significant to Prog list. At rateyourmusic, which is a general music site with a huge number of genres to peruse and highlight in the charts, I wouldn't say they have self-appointed high priests of Prog (not that I'd really say the same here either, this is better thought of as a coven ;) ), yet that general audience does not favour ELP albums either. Two sites with different systems, neither of which place ELP albums highly. ELP does better here in the ranking than there. I do agree that the albums generally seem flawed, and I think that ELP was showy in their way doesn't help. ELP dated badly more than many other classic prog bands for me. As one PA person once put it, "You just had to be there". Well, lots of us weren't, and even if we were, that doesn't mean we liked it then, or if we did, still do. I used to like ELP more than I do now. |
Rateyourmusic is a paradise for hipsters, it's not very representative of mainstream tastes. The Police are rated worse than ELP and they were EXTREMELY popular. Queen are rated better tan both ELP and The Police but nowhear near the highest rated artists and they are, well, extremely popular would be an understatement. They are one of the biggest musical acts in history, up there with the likes of Beatles, Elvis, Beethoven, Mozart, Michael Jackson and Sinatra. |
Maybe they are the high priests of hipster prog when it comes to music labeled with the progressive rock genre. If you see and would share a more mainstream chart from an other music site based on user ratings that includes Prog, then I'd be interested to see how ELP does in that. Good to compare a variety of sources when it comes to evaluating general opinions. A variety of sources is a good rule of thumb not just when it comes to the self-appointed high priests of Prog, but also the warlocks of doo-wop, the coven of crunk, the high lamas of hip-hop, the mullahs of muzak, the imams of indie, the gurus of garage, the rabbis of rap, the ministers of metal and even the sultans of swing.
"
No matter how it is generally rated at whatever site (be it ProgArchives or RateYourMusic or Disco Emporium), that doesn't make lower or higher placement more fair or unfair since it's just a popularity thing based on the user's preferences whether or not the music is generally popular or not, and people can appreciate something as they like. Some unfairness does come into play often, so I mean as a general principle.
PA has algorithms that affect ranking, I wanted to compare it with a different site that works quite differently. If one finds one music site that covers various music and ELP ranks high in their popularity list (and the way its done seems fair), then I'd have no problem with that. Just because I don't much like ELP does not mean that I think others should feel the same way. I appreciate ELP's significance no matter how much or little I like it.
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It's not just about rating averages in websites, you can look at their popularity in real life which can differ considerably as shown in the cases of The Police or Queen among others. Their tickets sold or how the albums did in the charts. ELP did considerably better than Camel or VDGG for instance. Of course this doesn't mean they are better as obviously commercial success and quality are different things.
The opposite in RyM would be In the Aeroplane over the Sea (Neutral Milk Hotel), which has a very high rating but it didn't get much attention or commercial success, while some more classic albums are not rated that highly.
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 20:21 |
TheLionOfPrague wrote:
Logan wrote:
TheLionOfPrague wrote:
Logan wrote:
I have some issue with the whole notion of just deserts when it comes to how people generally rate (an amalgamation) albums. Sure some individuals are unfair, but it's a top-rated list, not as some at this forum have seemed to think a most significant to Prog list. At rateyourmusic, which is a general music site with a huge number of genres to peruse and highlight in the charts, I wouldn't say they have self-appointed high priests of Prog (not that I'd really say the same here either, this is better thought of as a coven ;) ), yet that general audience does not favour ELP albums either. Two sites with different systems, neither of which place ELP albums highly. ELP does better here in the ranking than there. I do agree that the albums generally seem flawed, and I think that ELP was showy in their way doesn't help. ELP dated badly more than many other classic prog bands for me. As one PA person once put it, "You just had to be there". Well, lots of us weren't, and even if we were, that doesn't mean we liked it then, or if we did, still do. I used to like ELP more than I do now. |
Rateyourmusic is a paradise for hipsters, it's not very representative of mainstream tastes. The Police are rated worse than ELP and they were EXTREMELY popular. Queen are rated better tan both ELP and The Police but nowhear near the highest rated artists and they are, well, extremely popular would be an understatement. They are one of the biggest musical acts in history, up there with the likes of Beatles, Elvis, Beethoven, Mozart, Michael Jackson and Sinatra. |
Maybe they are the high priests of hipster prog when it comes to music labeled with the progressive rock genre. If you see and would share a more mainstream chart from an other music site based on user ratings that includes Prog, then I'd be interested to see how ELP does in that. Good to compare a variety of sources when it comes to evaluating general opinions. A variety of sources is a good rule of thumb not just when it comes to the self-appointed high priests of Prog, but also the warlocks of doo-wop, the coven of crunk, the high lamas of hip-hop, the mullahs of muzak, the imams of indie, the gurus of garage, the rabbis of rap, the ministers of metal and even the sultans of swing.
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No matter how it is generally rated at whatever site (be it ProgArchives or RateYourMusic or Disco Emporium), that doesn't make lower or higher placement more fair or unfair since it's just a popularity thing based on the user's preferences whether or not the music is generally popular or not, and people can appreciate something as they like. Some unfairness does come into play often, so I mean as a general principle.
PA has algorithms that affect ranking, I wanted to compare it with a different site that works quite differently. If one finds one music site that covers various music and ELP ranks high in their popularity list (and the way its done seems fair), then I'd have no problem with that. Just because I don't much like ELP does not mean that I think others should feel the same way. I appreciate ELP's significance no matter how much or little I like it.
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It's not just about rating averages in websites, you can look at their popularity in real life which can differ considerably as shown in the cases of The Police or Queen among others. Their tickets sold or how the albums did in the charts. ELP did considerably better than Camel or VDGG for instance. Of course this doesn't mean they are better as obviously commercial success and quality are different things.
The opposite in RyM would be In the Aeroplane over the Sea (Neutral Milk Hotel), which has a very high rating but it didn't get much attention or commercial success, while some more classic albums are not rated that highly. |
Ugh, I lost my message.
But how successful it was would not necessarily reflect on how internet users at sites like PA and RYM would rate it today (or since the site got going). Heck, my tastes have changed over the last 40 years. This started with talking about the unfairness of ELP not ranking high enough at a website (PA), and I used RYM as an example of how it is ranked at another website with user ratings. And with internet culture, people have been exposed to a lot of old music that they wouldn't have had access to at the time (had only been exposed to the most mainstream, commercial music often). Most of the rock-related music I got to know and love was during the internet stage. It has been said that the underground died with the internet as little known music has gained exposure, some that was very non-commercial.
I love that Neutral Milk Hotel album, and would rate it higher than things I knew in my youth such as The Police and Queen --mind you, my tastes were never that mainstream.
A lot of popular music went out of fashion. A lot of virtually unknown music became fashionable in certain circles. The internet has changed things, and I don't see why past commercial success should really reflect on the ratings of modern-day users. In Prog, I will favour lesser known artists like Art Zoyd to big ones like Rush, and would rate according to my appreciation of the music. Had I known Art Zoyd when I was young, I still believe I would have preferred it. I was lucky in the 80s to be exposed to University radio that played a lot of quirky, lesser known music such as Henry Cow, but then that was due to my tastes that it interested me when turning the radio dial.
If we at PA cared heavily about the most successful in their day bands, or most successful today, then maybe we wouldn't be in this niche. I am not a big admirer of most popular music. I don't think the ratings "should" reflect on an acts past commercial success. It should moreso reflect on how a group of individuals collectively enjoy the album when it is being rated imo.
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Feel free to bash at will, but to me it is no worse than PA's (and a little better per my tastes). That said, I don't "get" why people get as passionate about popularity charts as some do, or the need to rank things as much as they do. I guess it comes from being pattern seeking animals and a desire for validation.
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 20:53
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 21:01 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
Your point is that you don't like a lot of the albums in RYM's chart, which is just ranks albums based on the accumulated ratings of its users, many of whom happed to find all of those albums to be some of the greatest of all time. So, in essence, you have your own taste and it doesn't match the majority.
So does everyone.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 21:37 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
[
You sound like a cranky old man. You write reviews here about music you just don't get.
So what if other people like other things? I love RYM a lot. I have discovered infinite amounts of new music on that site. Sure the charts don't reflect my tastes either but who cares really.
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When a person writes "You write reviews here about music you don't get" proves to have a sense of superiority.
And this sense of superiority prevents you from understanding what I write, for example you didn't understand that my rating on RYM's chart has nothing to do with the music I like or dislike.
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 21:57 |
Sacro_Porgo wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
Your point is that you don't like a lot of the albums in RYM's chart, which is just ranks albums based on the accumulated ratings of its users, many of whom happed to find all of those albums to be some of the greatest of all time. So, in essence, you have your own taste and it doesn't match the majority.
So does everyone. |
No, my tastes have absolutely nothing to do with it. Suppose my favorite bands were Radiohead and Pink Floyd: I would have written exactly the same thing. (I love Ok Computer, Wish You Were and In the Court of ... the top 3 of RYM).
I just don't think a general ranking is serious, ranging from jazz to rock, rap to folk etc. if it produces so many albums by the same groups, including some artists like Kendrick Lamar, who is present with 2 albums in the top 20 and he has made 4 albums in total, moreover with very mixed critical reviews.
It is also clear that this ranking favors well-known albums, which have had commercial success, and above all in English.
In my opinion, it is a ranking that has no value. I have criteria by which I consider rankings done well, serious, and others that are less serious or worthless. And these criteria have little to do with my tastes.
For the rest: RYM is a great site to discover new music, I have nothing to complain about it.
Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 17 2021 at 21:58
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 21:57 |
Since we're talking progressive rock, I do think this chart makes more sense to compare to PA's than the general music chart at RYM. https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/exc:live,archival/#results
How would you rate RYMs progressive rock genre chart compared to Prog Archives (say the top 25 of each)?
Here is the PA one for comparison:
Be fascinated to see your calculations.
I would rather be able to filter it so that it is one album per band in both PA and RYM, although I actually can by skipping.
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 22:04
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 22:02 |
Greg, for now I tell you only this:
on RYM
1 Pink Floyd 2 3 Pink Floyd 4 5 Pink Floyd 6 7 Pink Floyd
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Logan
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 22:15 |
Pink Floyd is very popular and so not surprising for a general music site. But at PA, there are three Pink Floyd albums in the top 9 (3,6,9), so it's not that different.
RYM has Rock Bottom, Pawn Hearts and Third in the top 22, which is better than at PA in regards to those three taken together. Just for having Rock Bottom in the top 20, I prefer RYMs list (number 55 at PA). And Third being another fave (at 22 in RYM), and at PA that ranks number 153.
Neither the PA nor RYM list is terribly diverse (top 20), nor really adventurous I might say. Of course popular bands will be well-represented with albums at both sites in top lists
Edited by Logan - October 17 2021 at 22:30
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 23:28 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Sacro_Porgo wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
Your point is that you don't like a lot of the albums in RYM's chart, which is just ranks albums based on the accumulated ratings of its users, many of whom happed to find all of those albums to be some of the greatest of all time. So, in essence, you have your own taste and it doesn't match the majority.
So does everyone. |
No, my tastes have absolutely nothing to do with it. Suppose my favorite bands were Radiohead and Pink Floyd: I would have written exactly the same thing. (I love Ok Computer, Wish You Were and In the Court of ... the top 3 of RYM).
I just don't think a general ranking is serious, ranging from jazz to rock, rap to folk etc. if it produces so many albums by the same groups, including some artists like Kendrick Lamar, who is present with 2 albums in the top 20 and he has made 4 albums in total, moreover with very mixed critical reviews.
It is also clear that this ranking favors well-known albums, which have had commercial success, and above all in English.
In my opinion, it is a ranking that has no value. I have criteria by which I consider rankings done well, serious, and others that are less serious or worthless. And these criteria have little to do with my tastes.
For the rest: RYM is a great site to discover new music, I have nothing to complain about it.
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Hm. I apologize. I was expecting it to be a taste thing (because most of these sorts of complaints are taste things), but that's a pretty well reasoned response. I can't say I take the rym top albums list too seriously either, other than to confirm to me that the "underground/alternative" factor of Radiohead or Pink Floyd or some other artists up there must be pretty contrived at this point. I do think it's worth noting however, that because of the way that list is made, it never really had a shot at being anything other than a popularity contest, and of course the most popular music is well known, commercially successful, and English.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: October 17 2021 at 23:30 |
Sacro_Porgo wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Sacro_Porgo wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Rate your music is that site that has in its chart of the best albums ever, 2 Radiohead albums and 2 Pink Floyd albums (2 + 2 = 4) in the first 7 places (4 on 7). And that has, in its top 20 albums, 2 albums of Kendrick Lamar, one Madvillain album and another Radiohead album (and that's three). And I stop here.
My rating, from 1 to 10, of the Rate Your Music ranking (and therefore of its ratings in general) is ZERO. |
Your point is that you don't like a lot of the albums in RYM's chart, which is just ranks albums based on the accumulated ratings of its users, many of whom happed to find all of those albums to be some of the greatest of all time. So, in essence, you have your own taste and it doesn't match the majority.
So does everyone. |
No, my tastes have absolutely nothing to do with it. Suppose my favorite bands were Radiohead and Pink Floyd: I would have written exactly the same thing. (I love Ok Computer, Wish You Were and In the Court of ... the top 3 of RYM).
I just don't think a general ranking is serious, ranging from jazz to rock, rap to folk etc. if it produces so many albums by the same groups, including some artists like Kendrick Lamar, who is present with 2 albums in the top 20 and he has made 4 albums in total, moreover with very mixed critical reviews.
It is also clear that this ranking favors well-known albums, which have had commercial success, and above all in English.
In my opinion, it is a ranking that has no value. I have criteria by which I consider rankings done well, serious, and others that are less serious or worthless. And these criteria have little to do with my tastes.
For the rest: RYM is a great site to discover new music, I have nothing to complain about it.
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Hm. I apologize. I was expecting it to be a taste thing (because most of these sorts of complaints are taste things), but that's a pretty well reasoned response. I can't say I take the rym top albums list too seriously either, other than to confirm to me that the "underground/alternative" factor of Radiohead or Pink Floyd or some other artists up there must be pretty contrived at this point. I do think it's worth noting however, that because of the way that list is made, it never really had a shot at being anything other than a popularity contest, and of course the most popular music is well known, commercially successful, and English. |
I'll add this though: my understanding is that those Kendrick albums are far and away critical darlings. Care to point me to the critics who didn't like GKMC or TPAB?
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Lewian
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Posted: October 18 2021 at 05:23 |
@Lorenzo: While not entering the discussion about specific artists, I don't think it can be used as an argument that some artists such as PF, Can, Lamar, Radiohead are strongly represented in the top 10, be it prog or general. If people just rate according to quality, there is no rule that says that no band can have 3 in the best 10. In fact, using a constraint to avoid this would be a bias against objectivity. (Of course assuming that objectivity is possible, which I don't believe anyway, but for argument's sake.  )
Given that in fact the lists are aggregates of user votings and users tend to be fans of certain artists, one should expect there is a tendency to "clump" certain artists in such lists. Same happens here with Yes, Genesis, PF. That's for sure not "objective" (even if most users have a wide appreciation for different kinds of music, fandom will bias them in favour of (1) knowing and (2) rating highly further stuff of their supported artists), but not avoidable using mass voting in order to put a list together. Pitchfork journalists could do better in this respect, but of course their preferences come with other problems. (In fact, to add a maybe contentious musical statement, I fully support ranking much of PF, Can, and Radiohead over much of Yes and Genesis. But then I'm prone to love electronic noises, of which Yes and Genesis just don't have enough.  )
Edited by Lewian - October 18 2021 at 05:26
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