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Progarchives and the world of boxes

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Guldbamsen View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 02 2020 at 03:24
‘How in the blue feck did he arrive at that conclusion?!!!???? I mean 3 bloody stars for Foxtrot/Close To The Edge/etc???? Doesn’t he know this is a prog rock site!???’

Back when PA started to get a lot of metal reviews it also received it’s fair share of new members..often younger guys who came from a predominantly metal based upbringing though now enthralled with the progressive and more shapeshifting ways of the genre. Some of these guys though didn’t feel the same about the classics as the general bearded 60+ prog fans did....and we saw loads of threads and posts similar to the above, granted, faux quote.

This is merely a small fraction of the bigger picture and dilemma with a place like Progarchives or indeed any specialist internet music site. Music is inherantly appreciated on a deeply subjective level yet at the same time we’re trying to assign tags and boxes to the very same. In essence we do this because we need a language that will help us in better locating music that we will like. That is all and should be all.
But we tend to give the boxes a life of their own and start believing in them....even starting pseudo-feuds and wars between them simply because we don’t like what we’ve heard of X box.

Then again this sort of thing has been going on for a long time. Remember how punk (or disco depending on who you ask) killed prog? How these two styles of music supposedly were at war with each other? Or similarly how bands were pitted up against each other like fx The Beatles vs The Stones and later on Oasis vs Blur - hell I even got a whiff of that here in Denmark with Kashmir vs Psyched Up Janis which I never quite understood as I loved both bands....which of course wasn’t allowed because you either dug one or the other!!!
What has happened since with the internet is that we, the fans, continue this mentality ad nauseum. We see this every day here on this very forum where folks flip out in the polls instead of just thinking of them as a bit of fun and a silly platform to talk about music.
I believe this mentality mimics the one found in sport fans and more than anything it leads music to become something similar: a competition. A quest for gold medals, grammys, the top spot on PA’s list/poll and similar stuff that in the end doesn’t amount to anything other than a faux piedestal. Care about the way the music makes you feel...not about the made up contest over the internet that maybe 30 other folks worldwide are reading.

The boxes are alright if you see them for what they are and refrain from making sweeping generalisations about the ones you only know on a superficial level. Use them as tools to better locate the stuff you’re into and in order to better communicate with folks on the forum..and you’re good to go. If you don’t understand them and feel they end up confusing you, then scrap em altogether! You’re probably better off in the long run and most likely have other ways of talking about music that people understand.
Whatever you do though never ever buy into the boxes! Never treat them as real things. That is what is currently killing the music and has done so for so long..yet we keep perpetuating this evil and wholly anodyne way of treating an artform that is supposed to be about more...something that jolts the spirit and ignites the spark in us....Right?
We should be building bridges instead of burning them and it all starts in ourselves and the way we communicate with each other.

I’m not sure if this makes perfect sense to everyone out there and I don’t expect it to either, but I feel that this is an important subject to address if we’re ever going to get music, not only prog rock, back to where it belongs..and not just some arbitrary form of expression we enroll in our daily “fencing matches”.
Remember the old Python sketch?
‘Ah, I’d like to have an argument please’

I’d personally like to have less around topics that conflate music with sports.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 03:35
I agree you David fully! I think there even were Wigwam vs Tasavallan Presidentti in Finland at seventies, although there were Tolonen, Groundstroem & Kotilainen played in both bands! Not of course sure, where they serious at all.

Anyway I have always tried to avoid all the boxes, I believe also that "this band belongs into that genre" started into nineties, there has always been that of course, but I think then started that ridicilous subgenre time and hate towards bands if they didn´t do exactly genre´s fans wants.

Of course nobody can like everything and just haven´t got time to listen everything but I really try to avoid say anything about the music that I know very little. And try to let people have right to like what they like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 04:33
Thanks for post Mårtte
It was actually the e-mails we interchanged that spurred me on to finally start this thread, so thanks man.

When I mentioned that all of this starts with ourselves and the way we communicate with each other, I genuinely mean that. All of this started out as soul searching on my behalf after having read some of my old posts and reviews and not really liking what I found. My initial thought was to go back and edit the stuff that I no longer agreed with or similarly came out rather offensively and sort of “whitewash” my own history in order to make me appear more ‘sympathetic’ and ‘worldly-wise’...but then realised that is exactly what’s wrong with just about every arena of the world that is based around information. I am very much a part of that and if I don’t own up to that fact and learn from (my own) history...well it all ends up being about the ego and how best to support it. Not exactly the finest soil for inspiration and new ideas...

It’s an ongoing struggle in me and I imagine it will continue to be so just because this way of treating music has been integral to western culture even before I was born...but I am trying to learn and change as I go along.
I used to do the same as most famous music critics would do and highlight certain albums by denigrating others...often artists that couldn’t be further from each other if they hired a space ship...yet through some weird and unholy concoction in my brain - possibly fueled by a then ongoing thread over PA about the same band where certain posts of nonsense got under my skin - I end up doing a sly fencing move back...ending up supporting the sports equation even further.

Heh..the older I get the more convinced I get of the old saying: ‘what goes around comes around’ which in effect just is a hip adaptation of Newton’s laws on physics.
Physics exist outside of objects though and react in much the same manner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 05:14
I think I agree broadly with the gist of your OP David (if I understand it at all) but given the site content is the result of review scores (either written or rated) and that we will never have album tagging (due to limitations in the site software) PA might appear more 'sports' aligned, restrictive or inflexible to a visitor of other specialist internet music sites. Yes, the arguments we have on PA are petty and trivial e.g. my fave band's groupies could kick your fave band's groupies' butts all day etc but there appears to be an almost insatiable desire in the human psyche to categorize, label, appraise and rate quantitatively whatever we find stimulating in any sphere of human endeavor. You are correct about the innate subjectivity of aesthetic values and watching a poster attempt to prove that his or her opinion is an incontrovertible fact is what makes the site to damn funny/infuriating at times. I'm not sure you can educate people to change if those people actually infer from the genre definitions, charts, new artist submissions and album ratings an actual qualitative endorsement of their own incredibly narrow view on what's worthwhile in music as a whole. I've just read that back and it sounds pessimistic (that wasn't intendedCry) Great idea for a thread.

BTW Everyone's historical reviews and posts are just like the albums they purport to be inspired by i.e. just snapshots of people at a particular moment in time. None of us are the same person over any significant period of time (apart from MoshWink) You have no cause to white wash any of your PA past.


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 02 2020 at 05:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 06:18
Thanks Iain, greatly appreciated

To be fair I do not pretend to fully understand the scope of this discussion, which was one of the main reasons I decided to make the thread.
A lot of what you write with regards to the human psyche and our passion for categorising is akin to what I see in some scientific fields of research, and that strikes a chord with me and possibly helps narrow down a thing or two for me in that I often come across discussion/heated arguments about music that treat the subject like science. I hate that. The whole subjectivity thang simply obliterates the scientific “approach” that all too often ends up as some warped take on values that were never set in the first place.
If folks want to infuse a little science into the mix then why not Heisenberg’s ‘uncertainty principle’?
Also science is rather rigid in some areas that I find truly perplexing. ‘Constants’ for once, but that’s for another topic altogether (Why wouldn’t scientists come together to study anomalies regarding fx how the speed of light somehow magically changes every time they try to measure it..and that which we officially end up with is actually a median of the measurements combined? Why not dive into the fluctuations of the raw data? Same goes for gravity. Maybe we can learn something new.).

Again it probably boils down to how we effectively brainwash ourselves into believing certain nonsense about the music we listen to, and that goes for how we form our opinions on politics, culture as well as everything else. We are after all flock animals. Once because our species’ survival heavily depended on it. Nowadays though we’re so many that we have started to create ‘flocks’ out of thin air and bewar each other because that’s what we do and have always done(?).
...and my favourite band is obviously and most scientifically better than your’s. Read the bloody sheetmusic why dotcha!!!

...and then we bemoan the perpetual horror of being all alone with our favourite music..when most of what we do actually purports an existence of us ‘sitting on our own little island with our highly unique tattoos and secret music that only we ourselves fully understand the true beauty of’. Oxymoronland beckons!
It’s basically like me trying to develop awareness of the beauty of plants by visiting steakhouses with great salads.

Edited by Guldbamsen - February 02 2020 at 15:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:17
I only gave Foxtrot 3 stars. I personally don't think that lineup of Genesis really got it right until Selling England. It's inconsistent. But i didn't come to that conclusion by putting it in a box. Just find the album inferior :D

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:33
To me music has always been just subjective thing, also for the reason I have got little or at all education of it. So it´s just how I hear it, although practiced music hearing almost my whole life. Anyway I try to be "objective" when there is album that has commonly estimated great although I don´t understand it´s greatness. I don´t know is it just me, but I have paid attention there are people at least in forums who really try to put down some "canonized" albums, trying to prove them overrated etc. So I think they´re mixing their own taste and the greatness many other people´s have heard them. Of course also happen, that some albums been respected time they become but since forgotten (maybe for the reason) and that´s of course ok. But to me it seems it´s 2000`s phenomenon to put down really great albums of the 60`s & 70`s, it´s not long ago I read quite new edition of 1001 albums you must hear and there are most albums from every decade from nineties! Really many also from 2000`s and many great 60 albums missing. Again it´s just my subjective opinion, but I think Britney Spears album is not something I must hear before I die (there were also many other examples).

About the ratings of the albums in PA, I believe I have also given too many five stars, but anyway I have really thought they´re masterpieces. Anyway I really think it these days and much easier give four than five. The three (good but nonessential) I really don´t give any album I think great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:51
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


If folks want to infuse a little science into the mix then why not Heisenberg’s ‘uncertainty principle’?
Also science is rather rigid in some areas that I find truly perplexing. ‘Constants’ for once, but that’s for another topic altogether (Why wouldn’t scientists come together to study anomalies regarding fx how the speed of light somehow magically changes every time they try to measure it..and that which we officially end up with is actually a median of the measurements combined? Why not dive into the fluctuations of the raw data? Same goes for gravity. Maybe we can learn something new.).

It is obvious that you are not a scientist because you are mixing up a few things here Smile. I could explain this to you but would prefer to do that in a PM because I don't think it is of interest to most people.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:59
Somehow I knew this would happen and yet I still went ahead and posted what I did. Hmmm gets one thinking.
It’s alright Friede, no need to. I think I’ve read about all I can muster on the subject for now and I don’t want to stray too far off from the music perspective of this thread...even if I managed to do so in my earlier post
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 08:02
Hi, 

Thanks, David, Iain, Martte ... for a series of postings I am proud to read and appreciate.

As I mentioned before, I was born into a house of literature with over 40K books of literature, many of them Portuguese, Brazilian and Spanish stuff ... that would be considered, even today, just excess materials and not worth the discussion ... and at the time, I was reading Carlos Castaneda, and the one thing that stuck with me was when Don Juan was shown Carlos' thesis for his UCLA thing, and Don Juan says ... "you know what Mexicans do with paper!" ... and that was, and has been FOREVER, my attitude to a lot of music ... and the fact that I do not specifically like/dislike any style any more than the other ... and I try to make that clear ... and my biggest folly/idiocy is about a band having to have keyboards to be "progressive" or "prog", and all the keyboards are there for is to show off some frivolous solos bits that don't add a whole lot to the music in general ... certainly not like the history of music where the strings are kinda designated as the winds of change and life, when in the keyboard world, everyone thought that Keith was just doing solo bits here and there, and I never really felt that way about his music ... and my take on it, came true years later in the hands of Rachel Flowers doing a piano, and then later (also) an organ version of TARKUS ... and all of a sudden here it is ... a true piano concerto ... and no one else, here or anywhere else has the guts to stand up for it ... and this kind of thinking that everything that is done in the rock world is "pop music" only means that many folks do not appear to be "seasoned" in the art of listening ... something that helps you get rid of the "favorites" thing really fast.

PA for me, is not the problem ... but it's appeal is more towards the "top ten" than it is about the music itself ... and we can easily see this in many threads about better this person than that person ... the inevitable sports competition for an empty title ... a vague title that will be gone tomorrow when you wake up and hear something else!

Thus, for my tastes, the better answer to help you 3 would be a Top 100 bands ... instead of "albums", so we can better show that there is a lot more music out there, than most folks are capable, or willing to digest ... which we know is the issue ... but everyone knows the top 5 albums and has heard it ... but I probably bet my Las Vegas tokens on the last 5 albums listed and that less than 25% has heard any of it ... if they are being honest ... because if you heard all of the albums, and I mean a serious and intended listen, you will by then, have a different opinion on the "top albums" ... since there are so many of them.

The other thing that is difficult is explaining to people how an album FITS into a time and place and its content ... to see ITCOTCK listed as a top album as if everything in it is about its songs, takes away the soul of the album, and I doubt that many youngsters will even attempt to make sense of the album past one cut or two ... 20th Century Deranged Minds and of course, the title song, because it is so fluid and easy to listen to. And even then ... does anyone really care what the title song is about? The 20th Century song is easy ... about how many megalomaniacs and killers were around as "leaders" in the world ... and just so you know ... America with the Vietnam situation was not immune, although not quite mentioned and the song stuck to the atrocities that were on the news every day ... and on top of it, it also takes away the value and the strength that many bands had that performed at HYDE PARK ... the meaning of which we have conveniently ignored ... and I like to point out the Edgar Broughton Band ... for its standing up, even today, for things that continue to be sick and pathetic ... we don't discuss that because it is not "progressive" and it did not have the totally frivolous keyboard solos in it to make it "progressive" ... which to me is the most insulting part of the designation of the music.

Lastly, the other part that is so fan and sales oriented is the saddest of them all ... and I criticized it years ago, and it had to do with "instruments" that helped make this music famous ... like no one ever used anything in jazz and any other musical style out there ... which simply tells you that this is not something serious about the music ... this something serious about something else ... that I, personally, do not call "progressive" at all ... the Rick was used years before, even my Paul ... so what's the big deal? 

I don't have a solution, and like you folks, I would love to see a better interpretation but the PA site has to help create that avenue ... and they do not have to (necessarily) discontinue what they are doing ... but a list of top 100 albums, would make for some far out discussions, and all of a sudden, some folks are going to bring 3 from Japan, 2 from Poland, 4 from Spain, 2 from Brazil, 1 from Mexico, 5 from Germany, 4 from France and so on  ... and now the idea that progressive is a "style" might be seen and understood better, as a culture that honors music ... and is not, necessarily, just a bunch of songs ... 

I, personally, don't like the idea that CTTE, TFTO, Relayer, are just songs ... to me, they are the symphonies done by the youngsters our age, and how they interpreted "classical music" ... within the modern realm of musical instruments, something that had NEVER HAPPENED in music history until the advent of film, and recording, when all of a sudden we learned there was a lot more out there ... but we denied it and did not want to believe it until the day that we saw a kid get his head blown off ... the ugliest reality that helped bring us the 20th Century maniacal moments that defined one of the greatest albums and snapshots of an era and generation ... these things ARE my generation and stood up to be counted, and many have died for it ... but not in vain fame or glory ... with some magnanimous works that we still enjoy listening ... and you really think that Foreign Son is any better/worse than 20 Century Schizoid Man? 

I think that we have created demarcation lines that don't help people understand the music ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 08:33
" We see this every day here on this very forum where folks flip out in the polls instead of just thinking of them as a bit of fun and a silly platform to talk about music.
"I believe this mentality mimics the one found in sport fans and more than anything it leads music to become something similar: a competition. "

This is it in a nutshell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 08:49
Excellent discussion and I loved your "speech" that initiated this post.
 
I like the fact that we have sub-genres to further describe the music of certain bands, but I don't like the wars that go on because of them.  I'm always willing to give every sub-genre a chance by going in with an open mind to each album I listen to or review.  Yes there are some that I like (eclectic, RIO/avant, post/math, symphonic) more than others (prog metal, tech/extreme, neo) and even a few I don't know much about (zeuhl), but that doesn't mean I won't give everything a chance.  Because of that, I have found some great albums in some of those categories that I don't like as much. 
 
No single sub-genre is going to be better than another.  And that also goes for the old vs new argument.  Another thing that kills certain genres of rock, especially in Progressive rock, is that "they just don't make them like they used to".  There is a hell of a lot of excellent progressive rock out there that gets ignored because people are stuck in the past.  I also try to look at it without regard for time, even though there are some that are blatantly "out-of-date" or obviously trying to copy a sound, and those albums end up getting lower ratings because they are not progressive enough since they can't get out of a certain rut. 
 
Anyway, that might also be confusing, but, in general, we shouldn't box things into certain categories except to generally describe a sound.  That shouldn't keep us from listening to something or forming a bias against an album because it is labeled as something without at least giving it a try.  And, stop that silliness about the old vs new argument.  The main reason music is "stogged" is because of people's attitudes and unwillingness to be "progressive".  Progress past the old, but also, see beyond just the new (appreciate the roots).  It's all got greatness throughout the entire genre of Progressive music.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 09:13
Thanks to everyone joining the discusssion. I genuinely appreciate all your thoughts on this
Often when I read my posts back, especially the more convoluted bits, it dawns on me that it’s the internet and where folks in real life normally raise their eyebrows or similarly look confused, I know to change it up a bit. I think we all do this to a certain extent because the line of thought in one’s own mind is so clear that it tends to leave out significant bits of information that it naturally assumes people will infer by themselves
All my talk of ego and the surrounding alleyways I went down was more to underscore the absence of ‘fallacy’ in our current climate. Some times the wisest thing that can ever be said is ‘I don’t know’ or with regards to things that rely on individual tastebuds ‘I don’t get it’.
The ego thang is when we start dreaming up pseudo theories to support our unwillingness to go further than the tip of our own noses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 09:40
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I only gave Foxtrot 3 stars. I personally don't think that lineup of Genesis really got it right until Selling England. It's inconsistent. But i didn't come to that conclusion by putting it in a box. Just find the album inferior :D

Me, too! Though I consider "Supper's Ready" one of the pinnacle achievements of the entire "progressive rock" movements and "Can-Utility and the Coastliners" one of my favorite songs of Genesis's, "Horizons" beautiful, I have never been able to stomach "Watcher," "Timetable," or "Get 'em Out by Friday." Thus, the album, in its totality, is, in my opinion, flawed and inferior.

But, to the OP (sorry to go off topic but the Puppy man's comment evoked more strong response from me than David's OP and that which followed):

Just as athletics/athletes can be fun to both watch and participate in, they also excite emotional responses. Perhaps I am not alone for enjoying ProgArchives precisely because of the games of critical aesthetics (or should it be aesthetic criticism?).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 10:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

so we can better show that there is a lot more music out there, than most folks are capable, or willing to digest
 
But isn't that kind of the point? We all know there is lot more music out there than we as individuals can possibly listen to. So the problem isn't that we don't expand our musical taste, but that we have to find a way to actually limit our musical taste. How do I choose what music to listen to and what music to ignore? And yes, it isn't just about limiting the purchase of music, but actually refusing to even listen to some music.
 
One wants to maximise the quality of the music one owns, so it is natural to seek advice from those who know music or have similar taste in music. Thus we get back to the notion of popularity of music within the progressive rock genre. It differs from the popularity of music in general by the group of people within which the popularity is determined. In other words, we don't like music that is popular with the whole world, but it's ok for music to be popular with progressive rock fans (or better yet, with RIO/Avant-Prog fans (for example)).
 
One could try some form of random selection, but this assumes that most of the music within the selection scope is worthwhile. It also assumes that any worthwhile music that is found will actually be available. Obscure music is generally more difficult to obtain than the well-known albums, and so may not be worth the effort.
 
Sometimes, one could just allow serendipity to do its thing. For example, recently I discovered "Foals - Antidotes" that was playing at a local record store. I doubt that I would ever have discovered this album any other way.
 
 
 
I was thinking about thinking but it really didn't get me very far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 10:42
I have no idea what(or who) the op is talking about. Boxes? 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 02 2020 at 10:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 10:44
Most non physicists try to use quantum mechanical weirdness in an effort to justify their pet metaphysical faith or mumbo jumbo...it just amplifies their ignorance. That said, anybody who gives foxtrot 3 stars needs to locked in the box with the mythical cat in the famous thought experiment...

Edited by M27Barney - February 02 2020 at 10:45
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 10:47
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I have no idea what(or who) the op is talking about. Boxes? 
 
I'm confused too. I don't know who the mysterious PA member is who gave both the Foxtrot and Close to the Edge album a three-star rating.  Question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 11:04
Preaching to the choir, David!  Putting everything into tidy little boxes should only be a way to locate things, not ascribe a "worth," to.
And over time, your opinion may change, but still, whatever you wrote in the past is how you viewed it then.  Perhaps there could be a place for "Reviews Revisited...."  
I have often used reviews as a way to figure out if I want to listen to something (and not, as well), but that is only after following a reviewer and getting a feel for their taste in music and how it correlates with mine.  All music is, after all, subjective and includes many factors of the individual listener that are taken into account.


Edited by Snicolette - February 02 2020 at 11:09
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 11:09
I just listened to a perfect example of getting out of your box to listen to something amazing.
 
Cary Grace - Lady of Turquoise  Released on Jan 31, 2020
 
As one who can sometimes get tired of the long and pointless jams of some of the many wannabe psychedelic/space rock bands, I never once got tired of listening to this double album.  Some may not agree, but I never would have heard this if I hadn't decided (over 2 years ago) to move past some of my prejudices about certain sub-genres (boxes). 


Edited by TCat - February 02 2020 at 11:10

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