Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Description of prog rock
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Description of prog rock

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
johncologon View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 08 2020
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johncologon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Description of prog rock
    Posted: February 08 2020 at 19:17
Do you think the way I've described progressive rock here is OK? http://www.johncologon.com/#pr
Any suggestions for improving it would be gratefully accepted Smile
Back to Top
Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 3260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 20:25
Originally posted by johncologon johncologon wrote:

Do you think the way I've described progressive rock here is OK? http://www.johncologon.com/#pr
Any suggestions for improving it would be gratefully accepted Smile
That's a very well-written description of Progressive Rock and I wouldn't change it in any way. Thumbs Up
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 5807
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 20:30
It doesn't really matter since everyone has their own definiton(and criteria)for prog rock anyway. Your description seems good though(aside from from not mentioning Genesis and ELP ;) ).
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4400
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 21:08
I personally like what you wrote and the way you presented it. Nice job. No definition will be complete and satisfy everyone, so if somebody says you are wrong, don't be surprised or discouraged. 
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 1457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 21:30
And no mention of The Pretty Things, who arguably beat The Who with the first rock opera.  I know, bone of contention.  But otherwise a good descriptive.
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 5807
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 22:21
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

And no mention of The Pretty Things, who arguably beat The Who with the first rock opera.  I know, bone of contention.  But otherwise a good descriptive.

SF Sorrow was before Tommy but it was after "a quick one" by the Who which could be considered an early rock opera(a mini rock opera but a rock opera nonetheless). So depending on what you consider to be a full blown opera it is indeed arguable.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 08 2020 at 22:22
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 15461
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 01:58
Indeed perfect and I don't mind ELP and Genesis not being mentioned as the OP correctly identified bands that were up and running before these two became major players. 
Back to Top
LAM-SGC View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2018
Location: se
Status: Offline
Points: 662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 05:47
"People have come up with..."? well, actually, art rock, symphonic rock, psychedelic, acid rock, space rock, underground and progressive underground, were all terms in use before "someone came up with" progressive rock.
Back to Top
JD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5727
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 06:42
Enough already!

Can we all just agree on the fact that Progressive Rock is the "Jambalaya" of music (look it up) and leave it at that?

WinkLOL

I've always felt that prog and cooking are closely tied.


Thank you for supporting independently produced music
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 9228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 07:20
Hi,

A little more than I intended, but this is honest ... hopefully this helps, and I think that some folks might bring out their horns and kazoos against some of the wording. Wink

Quote
... Rock developed from rock'n'roll, which developed from blues, rhythm'n blues and possibly country. ... musicians began to experiment and try to stretch it to encompass areas that had been previously been covered by classical music ...
...

I think this is incorrect, when considering how many of the "progressive" folks had classical music studies and inspiration. Other than the USA, which was ruled by a lot of pop music (and still is), I would say that classical music had more influence than we like to give it credit. However, I am finding that there is also a lot of jazz influence, not so much in the "style", but in the idea that instruments could stretch their parts for a certain expression that fits the whole thing. For example, I don't think that Jaco Pastorius is copying any blues or jazz, and I would almost say that his playing and presentation was much more classically oriented than it was pop or jazz oriented, although some folks could easily say that he played like a jazz player, which I'm not sure is incorrect, in the end, but his additions to the music ... are way more classically minded and influenced than they are anything having to do with rock music at any time.

Quote
... are considered by some to be examples of Progressive Rock, and by others to be examples of Progressive Pop.
...

It was inevitable ... specially when in America it was all about sales, and in England, about the 2 magazines (someone said over 200K strong circulation!!!!), that pretty much defined things, and since the only thing that the BBC played (other than John Peel on the odd months!), was mostly pop related and rarely said a whole lot about it. 

In America, there was not a magazine that helped the music ... no longer was "Rolling Stone" a magazine that helped music ... right away it became the typical star magazine, that only did the really big this and that ... and in fact, most of its reviewer for any "external" and "different" music were total idiots to the point of saying things like "sounded like washing machine music" ... and that pretty much showed the GONZO styled bullpucky that came out of RS.

I think in England, there was a serious attempt to make the music better and extend it past the pop music area, and you could easily say that Beatles were the best example, and others quickly followed. Of note here is The Moody Blues and their album "Days of Future Passed", was, for all intents and purposes almost strictly classical ... with pop over it ... and it was something that almost no rock band EVER mastered properly beyond sounding stupid and just pop music with an orchestra until you heard CARAVAN and the NEW SINFONIA which included pieces of music created specially for the orchestra and they played with the band really well (there were others, this is not the only one!) ... and of course, because it is such a beautiful mix worthy of attention it is one album that "progressive" music folks do not like!

My take is, and I am pretty much the same age as many of these folks when they came up, is that my generation (thank you WHO), wanted to do a lot more than just a pop song, and PT calling the work "a rock opera", was really strong and something that a lot of rock/pop music fans at the time laughed at and they went back to their bubble gum music, and those folks that appreciated the story and how it was presented, even if it was a new "concept" in opera design (just songs! -- I am not sure than an opera is designed around songs!), it was better than a lot of the garbage in the radio dial that we were told was selling and were number 3 or number 4 on the chart ... 

Lastly ... remember that in America the first companies to market music, ALSO WERE OWNED by the movie studios, thus a lot of music (specially black music) had problems with distribution since only the movie studios were able to sell records in so many places across the country ... which is a problem for many other bands ... and then one day ... this all go busted ... but you could see this coming (TOM DOWD documentary is a MUST for you!) ... and while I am not sure that "Progressive Rock" is the difference ... there were a lot of different things already around ... it made one thing clear that we continually forget ... MUSIC HAS BEEN PROGRESSIVE FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS ... and the term used on some rock music is a bit weird and off kilter, and in my estimation lacks musical knowledge, but I will accept that is my view. Sadly, if there is one group that has a gross distaste for "different" musics, it is the "progressive rock" folks ... and classical music is one of these things ... remember the most important thing ... "progressive rock" invented sliced bread!



Edited by moshkito - February 09 2020 at 07:27
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 1457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 08:38
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

And no mention of The Pretty Things, who arguably beat The Who with the first rock opera.  I know, bone of contention.  But otherwise a good descriptive.

SF Sorrow was before Tommy but it was after "a quick one" by the Who which could be considered an early rock opera(a mini rock opera but a rock opera nonetheless). So depending on what you consider to be a full blown opera it is indeed arguable.
  Actually, SF Sorrow was released at the end of 1968, Tommy near the middle of 1969.  Pete Townshend has never openly admitted it may have been an inspiration.
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 5807
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 08:42
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

And no mention of The Pretty Things, who arguably beat The Who with the first rock opera.  I know, bone of contention.  But otherwise a good descriptive.

SF Sorrow was before Tommy but it was after "a quick one" by the Who which could be considered an early rock opera(a mini rock opera but a rock opera nonetheless). So depending on what you consider to be a full blown opera it is indeed arguable.
  Actually, SF Sorrow was released at the end of 1968, Tommy near the middle of 1969.  Pete Townshend has never openly admitted it may have been an inspiration.

What I said doesn't contradict what you said. So in the end as far as full albums The Pretty Things wins but for individual tracks the Who wins. Why would he admit it when he had his own song(a quick one) to be inspired by? Wink


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 09 2020 at 08:43
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 1457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 09:01
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

And no mention of The Pretty Things, who arguably beat The Who with the first rock opera.  I know, bone of contention.  But otherwise a good descriptive.

SF Sorrow was before Tommy but it was after "a quick one" by the Who which could be considered an early rock opera(a mini rock opera but a rock opera nonetheless). So depending on what you consider to be a full blown opera it is indeed arguable.
  Actually, SF Sorrow was released at the end of 1968, Tommy near the middle of 1969.  Pete Townshend has never openly admitted it may have been an inspiration.

What I said doesn't contradict what you said. So in the end as far as full albums The Pretty Things wins but for individual tracks the Who wins. Why would he admit it when he had his own song(a quick one) to be inspired by? Wink
  And right you are, I need some coffee, apparently.  I dashed off my response before reading the whole post.  And I do contend that "rock opera," is different than a "suite."  Inspiration?  Well, yes, certainly he'd experimented with longer pieces that led to an even longer piece.  So who (pun!) really knows, outside of Mr Townshend, who isn't telling.  

Edited by Snicolette - February 09 2020 at 09:10
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
JD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5727
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 10:22
Let's not forget The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (1968)

Granted it's not a "Full" concept / rock opera album, but it is half way there.

Thank you for supporting independently produced music
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 1457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 10:42
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Let's not forget The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (1968)

Granted it's not a "Full" concept / rock opera album, but it is half way there.

  Yes, I always think of The Nice as well, as very early prog.
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
johncologon View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: February 08 2020
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johncologon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2020 at 20:50
Hi Everyone,
I've updated what I wrote to try and take account of some of the points you all make. If you'd like to check it out and see what you think, feel free!


Thanks again,
John
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 9228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 05:45
Originally posted by johncologon johncologon wrote:

Hi Everyone,
I've updated what I wrote to try and take account of some of the points you all make. If you'd like to check it out and see what you think, feel free!


Thanks again,
John

I recommend creating a list (not on the write up!), at home, of the things you mention ... the order of things is not quite in order and things like The Moody Blues probably deserve more credit than Pretty Things, but there is a significant difference between one thing and another ... 

Classical music was a far greater influence in "progressive rock" than the better known "rock/blues/jazz" elements, and sometimes we think of these because it is convenient and not a reality. However, it is impossible to ignore the trio ... because they were all around as well, and in many ways closer to the musicians than classical music ... but that would not explain the English wave of music that was symphonic all over with string arrangements by the dozen, going back to the early 60's ... and in America, since the movie studios were pushing their stars, in the background was all strings and orchestra. (This hurt a lot of music distribution by popular groups ... but it could not be ignored when things started selling big ... and the final nail on the movie studios was Woodstock ... in terms of music ownership!)  It started changing big time around the time Henry Mancini came around, where the tunes were mostly centered and augmented with really clever and well defined rock instruments, and became the venue for a lot of soundtracks ... with the exception of folks like Maurice Jarre, who became more symphonic than ever and won Oscars for it.

I am not sure that what you are writing is totally correct ... it maybe more specific to ENGLAND than the rest of the world, that didn't exist ... and I will remind you that in America the experimental, progressive music, had been growing since the Bob Dylan days when he went electric ... and helped define/add a new expression to a lot of music. AND IN THIS CASE, it was much more defined by rock/blues/jazz than it was defined by classical music ... in England the reverse could be said to be true ... 

I would recommend a separation of both things ... other wise calling it "progressive rock" just because of England, is ... IN MY BOOK ... a very harsh disrespect to the word "progressive" and the rest of the world that also had a lot of music ... that is being CONTINUALLY DENIED! It makes it sound like France, Italy, Germany and Spain never had music ... and their examples show far more creative design and desire ... that should not be ignored.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
twosteves View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 2694
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 08:04
probably would have mentioned Moodies Days of future past--

and Emerson is spelled wrong.LOL
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 9228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 12:19
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

probably would have mentioned Moodies Days of future past--

and Emerson is spelled wrong.LOL

I just find the whole thing sad ... I think the write up is more of an attempt at putting together 2 or 3 websites information into one piece of work.

Sadly, it is something that does not recognize that in different countries there was no music, and that players were too stupid to not know what rock/jazz/bs/whatevah was in the first place. Specially when you consider the incredible history of music in Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Spain ... which one could say ... is far superior, within a historic context.

You know what it feels like? The constant ... no music elsewhere is valid! I'm sorry ... that is wrong!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
LAM-SGC View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 26 2018
Location: se
Status: Offline
Points: 662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:53
UK prog rock was akin to New Wave in the late 70s, loads of different musical styles but no single unifying style, it was more of a musical approach and attitude rather than an actual genre, which must be obvious to everyone as no two people can agree on what prog is or what bands are prog.

Edited by LAM-SGC - February 10 2020 at 13:54
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.328 seconds.