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Black Sabbath, the unsung prog trailblazers
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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

It'll probably have dismissals of "Yeah, but Bill Ward wasn't on it" but "13".
I recently listened to it, a good couple of times.
Never left a better studio album they could have gone out on.
Too bad never saw them live.
For sure !! 13 is pretty special. Wilkes did his best Ward. Passable. Great album. Love Sabbath till death.
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Yes sabbath were very progressive. Not in the symphonic prog way but that mix of down tuning, jazz harmonies and using jazz rhythms gave them a distinctive sound. With hyper driven sound slowed down and with songs that had clearly stated content aka another reason why they were not yer classic prog.

Wheels Of Confusion with that awesome coda is a go to example of what can be done for heavy rock...
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What modern prog bands combine Black Sabbath's type of old school metal/hard rock and prog? I'm looking for recommendations in this very narrow category so I'm not expecting a lot of answers haha. But Black Sabbath's proggy moments are one of my most loved musical styles ever in the history of music. I like metal (70s style, for the most part) and prog, I would like any band that adequately combined them in the BS vein.
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Volume 4 to Sabotage all sound like proto prog metal to me as well as select songs and moments from the first three. 
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[
Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

What modern prog bands combine Black Sabbath's type of old school metal/hard rock and prog? I'm looking for recommendations in this very narrow category so I'm not expecting a lot of answers haha. But Black Sabbath's proggy moments are one of my most loved musical styles ever in the history of music. I like metal (70s style, for the most part) and prog, I would like any band that adequately combined them in the BS vein.


Maybe not what you are looking for, but I find that the Italian band Blizaro has some of that. From its 2016 Cornucopia Della Mortte album...
Just a fanboy passin' through.
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Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

What modern prog bands combine Black Sabbath's type of old school metal/hard rock and prog? I'm looking for recommendations in this very narrow category so I'm not expecting a lot of answers haha. But Black Sabbath's proggy moments are one of my most loved musical styles ever in the history of music. I like metal (70s style, for the most part) and prog, I would like any band that adequately combined them in the BS vein.

Substitute Black Sabbath with Uriah Heep and you get Black Bonzo. Otherwise you are probably looking at stoner type bands. That said, I recommend checking out Temple of the Smoke and Lucifer Was. Also, not exactly modern anymore but in 2000 a band named after a Black Sabbath song called Spiral Architect put out one album called "a sceptic's universe" that might be worth looking into.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 15 2021 at 18:46
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ClosetothSupperBrick View Drop Down
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@AFlowerKingCrimson - thanks for the suggestions! I wasn't too sure if reviving a thread from 2020 was appropriate for my simple question but I'm happy I had replies regardless
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I've said it often enough, and it bears repeating: in the late 60s through about the mid-70s, bands with any ability did whatever the hell they wanted, whenever they wanted, because the record industry lost a lot of control during that time period. They could not effectively pigeonhole bands and place them in slots if the said bands had any success or autonomy or balls. Frank Zappa once stated quite clearly that the old-school record marketing execs clearly didn't know what they had, didn't understand the music, and just pushed out product (and Frank mentioned that didn't change until younger execs took over in the mid-70s and started placing every performer in specific slots and regurgitated it throughout the air-waves). 

Therefore, bands like Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Santana, the Allman Brothers, Zappa, Pink Floyd, Traffic and Jethro Tull veered from blues to jazz to prog to straight-ahead rock as it suited them. Shall we do 2 double-album rock operas within a three-release span of time? Sure, why not! How about a 45 minute long song without a single? What the hell, go for it! Our next album is not going to have a title or our band name anywhere on the cover. Ummm...okay...if you think so. We are going to release an album that sl*gs the whole record industry. Sure, it could be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team. 

From 1968 to 1972, Frank Zappa released a parody of hippies, a doo-wop album, an avante-garde experimental album, jazz-fusion/prog albums, an avant-rock/free jazz album, a few comedy rock albums, and a big band jazz album. Tull released a blues rock album, a blues/folk/rock album, two hard rock albums (once arguably a concept album), and then two progressive albums with record-long sides of uninterrupted music. Floyd went from psychedelia to full-blown prog to a rock opera. Yes decided to record albums with 10 to 20 minute-long songs and abandon pop music altogether. The Who released Tommy and Quadrophenia with Who's Next sandwiched in the middle. Zeppelin went from blues rock, to folk/hard rock to prog to a double album that had nearly every genre (Middle-eastern, prog, blues, folk, hard rock, etc.). King Crimson went from being already eccentric King Crimson to a metal version of King Crimson. Santana left rock altogether for a while. And Sabbath got more and more proggy till they reached a max of prog on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage.

There really was no such thing as "prog" because on any given album, a band could suddenly turn to being Prog before they decided to do something completely different. Queen is another case in point. Stevie Wonder and David Bowie as well.

so true in many respects except that you completely forget Keith Emerson who was already creating something stylistically recognisable as prog with The Nice. Symphonic Prog was born in 1968 with Ars Longa Vita Brevis and never truly changed that much. There was a core to the movement even if in general there were a diversity of artists with many different ideas.
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Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

@AFlowerKingCrimson - thanks for the suggestions! I wasn't too sure if reviving a thread from 2020 was appropriate for my simple question but I'm happy I had replies regardless

I don't think anyone cares. As long as the thread isn't closed it shouldn't make a difference. I think typically threads are closed after six months or maybe after a year. Anyway, glad I could help. 

Also, if you are open to non prog some of the 90's grunge bands are worth looking into especially Soundgarden and Alice in Chains. Soundgarden in particular I know were influenced by BS.  Not a whole lot of prog influence in there though but there might be some(I really only know one album by them).


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 16 2021 at 12:04
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

@AFlowerKingCrimson - thanks for the suggestions! I wasn't too sure if reviving a thread from 2020 was appropriate for my simple question but I'm happy I had replies regardless

I don't think anyone cares. As long as the thread isn't closed it shouldn't make a difference. I think typically threads are closed after six months or maybe after a year. Anyway, glad I could help. 

Also, if you are open to non prog some of the 90's grunge bands are worth looking into especially Soundgarden and Alice in Chains. Soundgarden in particular I know were influenced by BS.  Not a whole lot of prog influence in there though but there might be some(I really only know one album by them).

I would second the Soundgarden and Alice in Chains recommendation. My favourite Soundgarden album (Down on the Upside) is probably simultaneously their most most Sabbath and most prog.

Also, the new Sound of Origin album might interest you, too:
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Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

What modern prog bands combine Black Sabbath's type of old school metal/hard rock and prog? I'm looking for recommendations in this very narrow category so I'm not expecting a lot of answers haha. But Black Sabbath's proggy moments are one of my most loved musical styles ever in the history of music. I like metal (70s style, for the most part) and prog, I would like any band that adequately combined them in the BS vein.
 
Mastodon's album, Crack The Skye, sounds like Sabbathesque prog to my ears:
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by ClosetothSupperBrick ClosetothSupperBrick wrote:

What modern prog bands combine Black Sabbath's type of old school metal/hard rock and prog? I'm looking for recommendations in this very narrow category so I'm not expecting a lot of answers haha. But Black Sabbath's proggy moments are one of my most loved musical styles ever in the history of music. I like metal (70s style, for the most part) and prog, I would like any band that adequately combined them in the BS vein.

 
Mastodon's album, Crack The Skye, sounds like Sabbathesque prog to my ears:
 
 
 
 

Cool, thank you! I've heard the name before but never listened to Mastodon. Seems like a great band just judging by their album art and long songs (haha)
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I've said it often enough, and it bears repeating: in the late 60s through about the mid-70s, bands with any ability did whatever the hell they wanted, whenever they wanted, because the record industry lost a lot of control during that time period. They could not effectively pigeonhole bands and place them in slots if the said bands had any success or autonomy or balls. Frank Zappa once stated quite clearly that the old-school record marketing execs clearly didn't know what they had, didn't understand the music, and just pushed out product (and Frank mentioned that didn't change until younger execs took over in the mid-70s and started placing every performer in specific slots and regurgitated it throughout the air-waves).
 

Ain't that the truth! Were it not the case, no Tangerine Dream, no Mike Oldfield, and no Vangelis.
I had no idea Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult were both included in ProgArchives until now. That's great news! I'd always assumed those two very 'eavy, very 'umble bands weren't progressive enough to be included in ProgArchives. It makes me wonder now if the Hard Rock bands Led Zeppelin, UFO and Uriah Heep are included here too, but maybe that would be too much to hope for. Smile
 
If Tangerine Dream, Mike Oldfield and Vangelis are all included on ProgArchives too, then that would really make my evening. Smile

WinkBig smile
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EARTH.....if this is not prog, then I'm King Arthur TongueClap
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After 4 pages  .....it seems Sabbath is here on PA as prog related...so what's the deal?
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Originally posted by triptych triptych wrote:

if this is not prog, then I'm King Arthur

Thought I had heard every Sabbath song..
Thanks for bringing this one to my attention. I like it.
Levitating downwards,
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Sabbath has some proggy songs but overall isn't enough to be considered proto prog, because if they are, then that introduces pretty much any and all rock band before them as well.

Where is the line and why do we keep moving it? 

Is this site realizing there are fewer bands to discuss, so eventually Wu-Tang Clan's 1993 debut will be considered proto-rap-prog because of odd meter rhymed verses?

This site has an amazing bandwagon effect of people rationalizing aspects of sounds they'd denounce in another thread lol.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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So does that make Hendrix proto-proto prog as a result?

What about all blues based music before that, is that proto-proto-proto?

It's like you guys are looking backwards in hindsight to shoe-horn definitions to fit prog rock while not realizing in the process you're expanding the definition of it into uselessness, because if everything is prog, nothing is.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

So does that make Hendrix proto-proto prog as a result?

What about all blues based music before that, is that proto-proto-proto?

It's like you guys are looking backwards in hindsight to shoe-horn definitions to fit prog rock while not realizing in the process you're expanding the definition of it into uselessness, because if everything is prog, nothing is.

proto-prog or proto-metal are not music genres, they just are early examples of artists bands create something new, sometimes unique that would influence many others (a bit) later. I can't put it simpler than that. 
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

So does that make Hendrix proto-proto prog as a result?

What about all blues based music before that, is that proto-proto-proto?

It's like you guys are looking backwards in hindsight to shoe-horn definitions to fit prog rock while not realizing in the process you're expanding the definition of it into uselessness, because if everything is prog, nothing is.

proto-prog or proto-metal are not music genres, they just are early examples of artists bands create something new, sometimes unique that would influence many others (a bit) later. I can't put it simpler than that. 

You're right, because what you've explained here literally makes zero logical, let alone rational sense, my friend.

Keep arbitrarily deciding something is or isn't a genre or label depending on which way the wind blows.

So Sabbath is a metal band that has bits of prog elements here and there; why bother with the label "proto" if it's not a genre, but a description?

Where does the line between description and genre begin and end?

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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