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What’s your biggest gripe with the top 100
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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 11 2020 at 07:47
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

This...

Average rating: The classic calculation of the average but more weight is affected to the rating of progarchives.com collaborators and to rating with reviews.

- Rating only: Weight = 1 
- Review by members : Weight = 10 
- Review by PA Collaborators : Weight = 20 

20 to 1? Not fair in my opinion. And Miles and all jazz-rock/fusion will never be prog for me.

Hi,

I would like to change this to 1/5/10 ... and I bet that we will find a lot more things in the listing other than the same bands over and over and over and over and over .... 

The worst case scenario is when a "review" is  NOT a review and should not be used as a review at all ... something like ... sounds like Genesis ... which is not a review but an opinion, and the statement is not qualified or explained.

There are a lot of reviews, and for example, ITCOTKC ... I find that at least 10 to 15 of the "reviews" in there do not fit ... and should be moved to a thread instead. And that's just looking from the top, since the listing is ridiculous, and you can't find one that actually helps in the middle of some much poor reviews. I won't even look at Jethro Tull reviews ... I can see all the fan boys gushing left and right ... and that is not a review either!

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

This often happens with new albums, it will go down the top 100 eventually.

You mean ... past the point where no one will care? like 151st? or 305th?


Edited by moshkito - November 11 2020 at 07:52
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chopper View Drop Down
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This often happens with new albums, it will go down the top 100 eventually.
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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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See my previous post.

For Dwellers of the Deep to move up even one position would require 168 votes, which it doesn't have. It's not just ratings -- its the number of ratings that contributes to its position on the Top 100. DOTD just doesn't have enough ratings yet. Be patient.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Why is Wobbler's Dwellers of the Deep currently the 51st best PA prog album ever? It was released less than two weeks ago. It has 150 ratings and is rated higher than those with 2000 ratings. Decent album but no way better than those ranked lower. This is my big gripe with the PA top 100. Laughable.


Exactly my thoughts. I just listened to it yesterday on a streaming service to see what all the fuss is about, and although I consider it better than From Silence to Somewhere it certainly doesn't deserve the spot it's got in the top 100. Actually, I don't understand how Wobbler gets to have two albums in the top 100 while other bands like, say, ELP, only have one.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Not upset, just curious as to the why.

it would be funny if it's just a glitch or something similar. 
A failing algorithm LOL
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^Not upset, just curious as to the why.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Why is Wobbler's Dwellers of the Deep currently the 51st best PA prog album ever? It was released less than two weeks ago. It has 150 ratings and is rated higher than those with 2000 ratings. Decent album but no way better than those ranked lower. This is my big gripe with the PA top 100. Laughable.

also laughable that you got upset and care so much about the top 100. 

Don't check the one on MMA, you'll get headaches. LOL
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Why is Wobbler's Dwellers of the Deep currently the 51st best PA prog album ever? It was released less than two weeks ago. It has 150 ratings and is rated higher than those with 2000 ratings. Decent album but no way better than those ranked lower. This is my big gripe with the PA top 100. Laughable.
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Originally posted by anoopanunya anoopanunya wrote:

No gripe here. However I am a bit confused to see Tarkus not on there, or Brain Salad for that matter. Surely thats more iconic to prog than Billy Cobham, right? Also I love seeing my Camel ranked so highly. It’s all opinion though, albeit many opinions combined into 1.

that top 100 is not someone's personal opinion, is the overall rating of albums.
ELP's debut is 4.23
top 100 ends with 4.24
that's a close one. LOL
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Points: 44 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote anoopanunya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2020 at 10:02
No gripe here. However I am a bit confused to see Tarkus not on there, or Brain Salad for that matter. Surely thats more iconic to prog than Billy Cobham, right? Also I love seeing my Camel ranked so highly. It’s all opinion though, albeit many opinions combined into 1.
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Points: 2888 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2020 at 17:32
Alternatively, you could make a plan with others and have everyone rate a highly ranked album at one star to shift the dynamic, haha. Hypothetically, of course.
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

I have a few Radiohead CDs. I have spun them a couple of times to see what the appeal is...I think they are well produced but bland... but I think that some people who love them HAVE to say they are prog...but, even though I dont like discontinous thinking, I think they are crossover....just...
 
I have three Radiohead CD's too, but I've never thought of them as a prog band, until I arrived here. Radiohead have always been an Alternative Rock band to me, but I'm still glad they're here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my opinion. Smile
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my biggest gripe is that this thread exists and keeps getting resurrected. Dead
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Curious about the whole ranking algorithm, I looked up an old thread from July 2005 (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8462&PN=1&TPN=1)
to understand it better. The thread appears to be closed now.

Basically, it calculates a QWR value for each album:

QWR = (NR + nr)/(N+n)

where:

r = the albums weighted average rating,
n = the number of ratings for that album,
R = the average rating across all albums in the database,
N = the average number of ratings for all albums in the database.

In the Top 100, you can see the values of r, n, and QWR for each album.

Using CTTE (at #1 as of 10/29/2020) for example, r=4.67, n=4536, and QWR = 4.6546.

They don't show the values of R or N, but they can be calculated from any pair of albums. I used the first (#1) and last (#100) to avoid round off error to get R=3.88 and N=87.7.

With some more math, you can determine the criteria for YOUR FAVORITE ALBUM to make it onto the list, or to be at the top of the list.

Given an average rating for your selected album, the number of reviews must satisfy:

n >= (QWRmin - R)N/(r-QWRmin) >= 0

Right now, the #100 album has a QWRmin = 4.1887. Using the known values of R and N previously determined, your album must satisfy:

n >= 27/(r - 4.1887) >= 0

just to make it onto the list.

Notice that an average rating less than 4.1887 (i.e. QWRmin) it will NEVER make it onto the list, no matter how many reviews it gets!

Let's say it's rating is slightly greater than 4.1887, say 4.2.

It would take 27/(4.2-4.1887) = 2389 ratings to make it into the Top 100.

To make it to the very top, your selected album must satisfy:

n >= 68/(r - QWRmax) >= 0, where QWRmax is the QWR rating for the #1 album, currently 4.655.

If the average rating is less than 4.655, it'll never make it to #1 (unless the current #1 drops in ranking).

With an average rating of 4.7, it would take 68/(4.7 - 4.655) = 1511 ratings to get to #1.

So if your favorite album isn't ranked where you would like to see it, it is because its ratings (r) and number of ratings (n) don't satisfy the above inequalities.

I'm not saying this algorithm is good or bad, just that it is what it is. To paraphrase MikeEnRegalia from the 2005 thread...

"Albums with only one rating start at the total average (R) and slowly work their way up or down the chart as the number of ratings (n) increases. The more ratings an album has, the more it's computed average (QWR) matches the "real" average (r) ... the less ratings (n) an album has, the closer the weighted average (QWR)  "sticks" to the total average (R)."

Or put another away, every album starts at the average R=3.88, and it takes sufficient number of votes to pull it up or down in the ranking. That sufficient number is given by the math above.

If the algorithm has changed since 2005 and no longer obeys the mathematics I've described above then (to quote Emily Litella on Saturday Night Live)... "NEVER MIND".

BRING OUT YOUR VOTES!

Disclaimer: All of the example values (R, N, QWR, etc) used above are time-sensitive. Any time after 10/29/2020, all of these values will have changed, so don't take them as gospel.


Edited by wiz_d_kidd - November 11 2020 at 06:55
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dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
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I think From Silence to Somewhere is better than Close to the Edge tbh, should be top 20, the fact that there's a mere two albums from the last 30 years in the top 40 is so silly and laughable.

One omission i've come to realize recently is Death's Symbolic, that sh*t is fantastic and the definitive Tech Death Metal album.


Edited by dougmcauliffe - October 28 2020 at 18:12
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^^And the way things are going, Wobbler's most recent album is on the way to the top also!
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Points: 831 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote judahbenkenobi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2020 at 17:48
I STILL can't believe Wobbler's "From Silence to Somewhere" is ahead of any albums by ELP, Tangerine Dream, Dream Theater, Frank Zappa, Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Riverside, or ANY good album by ANY given band. And believe me, I keep listening to it with the most open mind I can, and STILL can't get to like it.
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Points: 10076 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2020 at 09:08
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I'm really starting to agree with Grumpyprogfan, I don't get how people can still listen to the same albums for years upon years and not accept changes in music and genres overtime.
Thanks, Doug. What took you so long? Keep moving on.
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Why do people hate prog metal so much? I'm not the biggest pain of salvation fan, but bands like Opeth, Riverside and Dream Theater (in the early days) were a natural progression in progressive music. Opeth in particular really resonates because it's really some of the most extreme music i've heard, while still managing to have a grip on great melody and structure. I'm really starting to agree with Grumpyprogfan, I don't get how people can still listen to the same albums for years upon years and not accept changes in music and genres overtime. Yeah, I love close to the edge, foxtrot, DSOTM etc, but these albums have been talked about the death. I love hearing new challenging music that'll knock my socks off if I give it time. Seeing people in this thread pretty much saying that the top 100 should have no music made in the past 30 years in it is really making me scratch my head.
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