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Do you believe in an afterlife?

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Poll Question: Do you believe in an afterlife?
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micky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 08:31
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

and that is why atheists can be as moronic as the other extreme.. the religious fundies.

believe what you want..it is a private belief... but trying to rationalize to others it by comparing humans to computers?

come on man... your brain is only half your essence. Use it! LOLBeer
Well if you are brain dead, your essence will not keep you alive very long.

you go Hawking.. I'd go Einstein Thumbs Up
 

transformation man...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 08:26
As animals, humans have adopted egocentric and anthropocentric beliefs to adorn the notion that just because we have evolved to become the super-predators on this planet, we have also allowed ourselves the singularity of having souls and an afterlife exclusive to our species, as opposed to the pigs we slaughter in bloody abattoirs to make bacon. 

Our intellect has let us wander into doctrines wherein we have created gods in our own image and likeness, and at one time we believed that the universe revolved around the earth. Thus, we have also created the idea of an afterlife, because our ego-driven supremacy cannot fathom that the souls we have created out of smoke and mirrors and pixie dust would ever end. We wish to be immortal and that death is but a mere stepping stone that will further illumine our perceived greatness as we shuffle off this mortal coil and join with the godhead we have fabricated back when we were chipping away at flint spearheads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 08:23
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

and that is why atheists can be as moronic as the other extreme.. the religious fundies.

believe what you want..it is a private belief... but trying to rationalize to others it by comparing humans to computers?

come on man... your brain is only half your essence. Use it! LOLBeer
Well if you are brain dead, your essence will not keep you alive very long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 08:14
and that is why atheists can be as moronic as the other extreme.. the religious fundies.

believe what you want..it is a private belief... but trying to rationalize to others it by comparing humans to computers?

come on man... your brain is only half your essence. Use it! LOLBeer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 07:51
This is what Stephen Hawking said about the afterlife "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail," he said. "There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 07:45
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Atheist here.

Curious as to what the afterlife is for believers. Do you take memories and your body? Floating orb soul? No memories = wouldn't remember anyone. How will you find your dog? Wherever this place is wouldn't if have to be big? And those that don't make it, do they really burn in fire forever? That too me would say you need a body or vessel to feel pain. If you feel pain do the other senses work?
  For me, I don't know.  I just think I believe rather than disbelieve, which makes no logical sense. Just like I believe there could be other intelligent life off of this planet, which may never be proven scientifically.  I know some things I've experienced that can't be explained to any certainty.  I just know that until I don't know for certain, there are still possibilities.  I definitely don't believe that there is burning in eternity for those who don't follow one silly stricture or another, that is kind of absurd, since that one usually goes along with the idea of a god or gods.  Why would something so huge be so concerned with such small details of so many individuals?  I think that it is likely that there is more than one reality within these larger realms.  Or maybe not.  Smile  I am just not discounting it until I know for sure it is discountable.
Once the body dies the brain dies. So how do you process thought? If we are just scattered into atoms in another plane we still can't process thought. So we will never know if we are in an afterlife. Matter will just exist.

Those of us who believe in an afterlife know perfectly well that the brain dies when the body dies. There is a part of us, though, which we feel is something more, something not tangible in the form of bodily parts. Call it your consciousness, self, whatever. It is that part of us which makes us what we are in thought, spirit. I do not believe that that intangible part of us dies.

I might also add that you state your opinion as if it is unalterable fact. Nothing about this is. Nobody really knows. It is the great mystery of life, or death. It is a question of faith, opinion, decisions.

Finally, you make reference to atoms scattered in another plane. There are numerous theories within quantum physics which support this, but also allow for something rather more than mindless atoms randomly wandering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 07:39
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Atheist here.

Curious as to what the afterlife is for believers. Do you take memories and your body? Floating orb soul? No memories = wouldn't remember anyone. How will you find your dog? Wherever this place is wouldn't if have to be big? And those that don't make it, do they really burn in fire forever? That too me would say you need a body or vessel to feel pain. If you feel pain do the other senses work?
  For me, I don't know.  I just think I believe rather than disbelieve, which makes no logical sense. Just like I believe there could be other intelligent life off of this planet, which may never be proven scientifically.  I know some things I've experienced that can't be explained to any certainty.  I just know that until I don't know for certain, there are still possibilities.  I definitely don't believe that there is burning in eternity for those who don't follow one silly stricture or another, that is kind of absurd, since that one usually goes along with the idea of a god or gods.  Why would something so huge be so concerned with such small details of so many individuals?  I think that it is likely that there is more than one reality within these larger realms.  Or maybe not.  Smile  I am just not discounting it until I know for sure it is discountable.
Once the body dies the brain dies. So how do you process thought? If we are just scattered into atoms in another plane we still can't process thought. So we will never know if we are in an afterlife. Matter will just exist.



Edited by Grumpyprogfan - July 25 2020 at 07:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 06:03
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

don't feel the need to include an "unsure" or "other" option, though I expect that some would like to have that option. I'm more interested in what people have to say than poll results anyway. Answering yes or no does not require certainty. I don't believe that I can be certain of anything, and I am ultimately agnostic on all matters, which does not mean that I don't believe or am not convinced when it comes to many things....


yep! LOL

so "other" for me...  much as anything in life.. or hah.. the after life.. it ain't as simple as black and white ...

yes and no man..


Feel free to elaborate on your views any way you can. I'm more interested in people's thoughts and experiences than just how they vote. As I often say, the poll question should merely be treated as an accessory to discussion, and all tangents are welcome. I'm not meaning to force anyone to choose, and if it's other, that can be explained in a post so I can understand better your rationale. I hope you find reading through the read interesting at least. There is room for nuance, but I was approaching this from a particular philosophical standpoint by phrasing it in a dichotomous manner. If you needed a few beers to get through what I was trying to express in the Bertrand Russell topic where I discussed similar things, you might need a case to get through this. I do hope that believing and not believing in the afterlife simultaneously is not causing any cognitive dissonance.

normally I'd say nah... they are my beliefs and suppose they are not mainstream so what is the point. Ain't no one going to have a sudden epiphany or conversion or some sh*t like that.. and discussing this stuff is akin to talking about sex.. it is not intellectual.. it is spiritual...  not to think. but to feel and thus experience it. Is anyone going to tell me I'm right.. hah... doubt that.. .tell me I'm wrong.. hah.. doubt that. It is merely what I believe and corresponds to my life experiences and observations.

for you I would.. but I think after all these years you know what I am talking about and what I do believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 01:55
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Again, my Yes has nothing to do with religion. I am Catholic, all my life and will end this life as a Catholic, for sure I have wavered here and there as most do with religion. I don't ever see myself leaving the Catholic church.....but nothing in how I was raised or all the Catholic teachings makes me select Yes.

I just believe there is an afterlife. Now if the question is 100% scientific and only that then you can easily argue the answer is No, since there is no proof.

This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe. 
What we have been able to explore outside of Earth is akin to going outside your house and exploring your porch, no further. As Earthlings we will never have the ability to travel far enough and survive to find another human race. What we are made of exists in space......unlike the robots that roam this website.


I did a deeper a deeper dive on this I think in the Bertrand Russell thread, but belief as I've been saying I don't treat as synonymous knowledge (related and overlap, certainly, how much so and in what way depends on the angle).

Sorry to repeat myself, but if you consider something to be true, then that is a belief (it doesn't mean it's truth, but you believe it). You don't have to know with certainty, and if it is not a Truth then the belief is not true knowledge. Basically, knowledge is considered to be evidence-based whereas belief does not require evidence (justified belief should be justifiable). Knowledge should be based on evidence, on falsifiability, on perceivable truth (that I could have phrased better). If I don't see the evidence that something is true such as the afterlife, then my default is not to believe in it, even if I don't ultimately know (have access to truth writ large). It's compatible to say that "I don't believe in an afterlife and I don't know if there is an afterlife". And one can say "I don't believe in an afterlife nor do is disbelieve in an afterlife.

The question could be phrased as "Are you convinced that there is an afterlife?" I wonder then how many would say I don't know.

Science isn't about proof, it's about evidence. Now I'm quoting myself from the Liberal Deacalogue thread since I got really into this there:

"The burden of proof is used in law and logic, and formal debate, and in logic means that one should adequately demonstrate a thing to be if not absolutely true, valid reasoning for the assertion (premises should be considered acceptable, relevant and sufficient enough to convince people who have no skin in the game that the conclusion/assertion logically follows), or something similar, been ages since I studied it. Of course what's considered valid etc. depends upon the person, but in logic (and mathematics) the propositions should support the conclusion in acceptable ways that should satisfy the standards of logical reasoning. Making arguments in formal academic logic does have fairly universal standards, and it is a closed-system of propositions (within particular frameworks).

In science, it's about evidence as there is no proof. It's not a closed system and every theory is open to questioning, adaptation or scrapping when new evidence comes to light. Science is about trying to understand how the universe works, but it shouldn't be making absolute truth claims as everything is open to reevaluation -- hypotheses, theories and claims are provisional and tentative -- they are subject to change."

I think you may be confusing the knowledge concept with belief.

When you say, "This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe" in your analogy you are asking a different category of question to the one I intended. Is there life outside of Earth? I would expect so, I think so, but I don't know (I remain ultimately agnostic on the matter). Do I believe that there is life outside of Earth? Okay, I must admit that I would want to answer in a more nuanced way than yes or no. It seems highly unlikely to me from a probability standpoint that we are alone in the universe. I tend to believe so, but that belief is held tentatively, and I recognise that we lack "proof". I feel that there is justification to believe, or assume, that there is life outside of Earth despite any lack of evidence. I think that it is a reasonable assumption, but it still an assumption.

Of course knowledge and belief are related concepts, and it is said that a sound belief is based on evidence as well, and the time to believe is when something can be demonstrated. Do I have sufficient evidence for a firm belief in extraterrestrial life, no. Am I convinced that there are extra terrestrials, I am reasonably convinced, but it is not held as a true belief because of the lack of evidence even if it is true.

There is a relationship between belief and knowledge of course and I do not mean to,or can I, fully separate the two. In fact knowledge is sometimes called justified true belief.

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

don't feel the need to include an "unsure" or "other" option, though I expect that some would like to have that option. I'm more interested in what people have to say than poll results anyway. Answering yes or no does not require certainty. I don't believe that I can be certain of anything, and I am ultimately agnostic on all matters, which does not mean that I don't believe or am not convinced when it comes to many things....


yep! LOL

so "other" for me...  much as anything in life.. or hah.. the after life.. it ain't as simple as black and white ...

yes and no man..


Feel free to elaborate on your views any way you can. I'm more interested in people's thoughts and experiences than just how they vote. As I often say, the poll question should merely be treated as an accessory to discussion, and all tangents are welcome. I'm not meaning to force anyone to choose, and if it's other, that can be explained in a post so I can understand better your rationale. I hope you find reading through the read interesting at least. There is room for nuance, but I was approaching this from a particular philosophical standpoint by phrasing it in a dichotomous manner. If you needed a few beers to get through what I was trying to express in the Bertrand Russell topic where I discussed similar things, you might need a case to get through this. I do hope that believing and not believing in the afterlife simultaneously is not causing any cognitive dissonance.

Nahh, I'm not confusing "knowledge with belief". The word knowledge is to know....I don't know that there is an afterlife, never said I know there is or is not one. I do believe, but not know it exists.

This is getting too exacting of a conversation with having to define words like a lawyer does in trial...."what do you mean when you say NO..." LOL

The question is not scientific, I don't think you can apply that to the question or anyone's answer, because your right a belief is not science or math, its not exact....It's a hunch, a feeling and nothing more or less.

Those who do not believe in a God, do not know scientifically that a God does not actually exist...they merely believe or think or feel that no such being exists.
Does a God exist? I don't know, but I believe a God exists...Is there an afterlife? I don't know, but I believe there is one.
Everyone's answer here is valid, as nothing has been proven....yet.
Carry on....Smile


I'm not trying to prosecute you, I'd leave that to Ivan (though you are both Catholic so it might go well). Now Ivan and I, we had some major nit-picky arguments. Sorry if I seem dogged, just trying to understand your positions, (and perhaps better explain mine), as I would hope you would also be trying to do this with me and others. You've raised some points and at least one question and I have tried to address those adequately, and I hope that I've done so fairly. I have tried to understand your positions. I'm interested in all perspectives and I'm not trying to invalidate the belief or lack there-of. The question is not scientific, nor intended to be. It's of a philosophical nature. Not all who do not believe in a God also believe, think, or feel that a God does not exist. A point I've rattled on about too much already perhaps. There's a spectrum of belief-- some believe more strongly than others. Some are convinced that the after life exists, some are convinced that it doesn't, and there's a wide range of shades in between.

Some might never have even been exposed to a God concept and so have no basis to believe anything on the God front, others might be negative atheists (also known as weak, soft and agnostic atheism) who neither believe nor disbelieve in God. Ask them if they believe in God, and they are likely to say no. Ask them if they disbelieve in God and they are also likely to say no. As I've said, an individual can be in the position of neither believing nor disbelieving in the afterlife, which is akin to how one can not know whether or not there is an afterlife (be agnostic on the matter). My wife does not claim to know with certainty that God exists, but she is a believer. I can respect that. My atheism/agnosticism has been more of a problem for her than her theism has been for me, at least when we were dating (she being an ex-Catholic Born Again Christian). I tried to get her into a less orthodox/ more liberal-minded outlook by taking her to the Anglican Church that I liked to attend.

Whether or not everyone's answer is valid, not every argument is going to be valid or logically sound. Some arguments are more valid and logically sound than others (say deductively, that the conclusion logically follows from the premises). One can argue many metaphysical notions in a reasonable manner even if we cannot truly know something.

Edited by Logan - July 25 2020 at 02:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 01:44
The "afterlife" and promise of paradise is used as population/social control (be "good" or you'll go to hell) for the gullible


Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Dead is dead, nothing after that.

ClapClapClap
TBH, the way humanity is going (down the drain), I woudn't want to witness it from anywhere, anyways... LOL


Edited by Sean Trane - July 25 2020 at 01:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2020 at 01:01
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Again, my Yes has nothing to do with religion. I am Catholic, all my life and will end this life as a Catholic, for sure I have wavered here and there as most do with religion. I don't ever see myself leaving the Catholic church.....but nothing in how I was raised or all the Catholic teachings makes me select Yes.

I just believe there is an afterlife. Now if the question is 100% scientific and only that then you can easily argue the answer is No, since there is no proof.

This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe. 
What we have been able to explore outside of Earth is akin to going outside your house and exploring your porch, no further. As Earthlings we will never have the ability to travel far enough and survive to find another human race. What we are made of exists in space......unlike the robots that roam this website.


I did a deeper a deeper dive on this I think in the Bertrand Russell thread, but belief as I've been saying I don't treat as synonymous knowledge (related and overlap, certainly, how much so and in what way depends on the angle).

Sorry to repeat myself, but if you consider something to be true, then that is a belief (it doesn't mean it's truth, but you believe it). You don't have to know with certainty, and if it is not a Truth then the belief is not true knowledge. Basically, knowledge is considered to be evidence-based whereas belief does not require evidence (justified belief should be justifiable). Knowledge should be based on evidence, on falsifiability, on perceivable truth (that I could have phrased better). If I don't see the evidence that something is true such as the afterlife, then my default is not to believe in it, even if I don't ultimately know (have access to truth writ large). It's compatible to say that "I don't believe in an afterlife and I don't know if there is an afterlife". And one can say "I don't believe in an afterlife nor do is disbelieve in an afterlife.

The question could be phrased as "Are you convinced that there is an afterlife?" I wonder then how many would say I don't know.

Science isn't about proof, it's about evidence. Now I'm quoting myself from the Liberal Deacalogue thread since I got really into this there:

"The burden of proof is used in law and logic, and formal debate, and in logic means that one should adequately demonstrate a thing to be if not absolutely true, valid reasoning for the assertion (premises should be considered acceptable, relevant and sufficient enough to convince people who have no skin in the game that the conclusion/assertion logically follows), or something similar, been ages since I studied it. Of course what's considered valid etc. depends upon the person, but in logic (and mathematics) the propositions should support the conclusion in acceptable ways that should satisfy the standards of logical reasoning. Making arguments in formal academic logic does have fairly universal standards, and it is a closed-system of propositions (within particular frameworks).

In science, it's about evidence as there is no proof. It's not a closed system and every theory is open to questioning, adaptation or scrapping when new evidence comes to light. Science is about trying to understand how the universe works, but it shouldn't be making absolute truth claims as everything is open to reevaluation -- hypotheses, theories and claims are provisional and tentative -- they are subject to change."

I think you may be confusing the knowledge concept with belief.

When you say, "This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe" in your analogy you are asking a different category of question to the one I intended. Is there life outside of Earth? I would expect so, I think so, but I don't know (I remain ultimately agnostic on the matter). Do I believe that there is life outside of Earth? Okay, I must admit that I would want to answer in a more nuanced way than yes or no. It seems highly unlikely to me from a probability standpoint that we are alone in the universe. I tend to believe so, but that belief is held tentatively, and I recognise that we lack "proof". I feel that there is justification to believe, or assume, that there is life outside of Earth despite any lack of evidence. I think that it is a reasonable assumption, but it still an assumption.

Of course knowledge and belief are related concepts, and it is said that a sound belief is based on evidence as well, and the time to believe is when something can be demonstrated. Do I have sufficient evidence for a firm belief in extraterrestrial life, no. Am I convinced that there are extra terrestrials, I am reasonably convinced, but it is not held as a true belief because of the lack of evidence even if it is true.

There is a relationship between belief and knowledge of course and I do not mean to,or can I, fully separate the two. In fact knowledge is sometimes called justified true belief.

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

don't feel the need to include an "unsure" or "other" option, though I expect that some would like to have that option. I'm more interested in what people have to say than poll results anyway. Answering yes or no does not require certainty. I don't believe that I can be certain of anything, and I am ultimately agnostic on all matters, which does not mean that I don't believe or am not convinced when it comes to many things....


yep! LOL

so "other" for me...  much as anything in life.. or hah.. the after life.. it ain't as simple as black and white ...

yes and no man..


Feel free to elaborate on your views any way you can. I'm more interested in people's thoughts and experiences than just how they vote. As I often say, the poll question should merely be treated as an accessory to discussion, and all tangents are welcome. I'm not meaning to force anyone to choose, and if it's other, that can be explained in a post so I can understand better your rationale. I hope you find reading through the read interesting at least. There is room for nuance, but I was approaching this from a particular philosophical standpoint by phrasing it in a dichotomous manner. If you needed a few beers to get through what I was trying to express in the Bertrand Russell topic where I discussed similar things, you might need a case to get through this. I do hope that believing and not believing in the afterlife simultaneously is not causing any cognitive dissonance.
Nahh, I'm not confusing "knowledge with belief". The word knowledge is to know....I don't know that there is an afterlife, never said I know there is or is not one. I do believe, but not know it exists.

This is getting too exacting of a conversation with having to define words like a lawyer does in trial...."what do you mean when you say NO..." LOL

The question is not scientific, I don't think you can apply that to the question or anyone's answer, because your right a belief is not science or math, its not exact....It's a hunch, a feeling and nothing more or less.

Those who do not believe in a God, do not know scientifically that a God does not actually exist...they merely believe or think or feel that no such being exists.
Does a God exist? I don't know, but I believe a God exists...Is there an afterlife? I don't know, but I believe there is one.
Everyone's answer here is valid, as nothing has been proven....yet.
Carry on....Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geekfreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 23:29
Do i believe in an afterlife...The quick answer is NO! but that`s not nearly true due to the fact of my Dad passed away at 38yrs old way to young and i`d like to think i`ll see him again 
It’s a mad mad world conspiracy theories on a. Vast scale about “COVID-19 and the Government” cover up..,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 22:45
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

I really love how you delve so deeply into the process, Logan.  I admit, sometimes I am just answering in a sort of stream of consciousness way, to see how I arrive at the destination.  I, too, love seeing how others think of these things and how they get there.  We may never know these answers, but at least we ask the questions.  


Thank you. I'd like to do more stream of consciousness stuff, I am a terrific rambler, sometimes I do but these days it comes across as so incoherent. I always love reading your thoughts, Nickie, and I used the honour term already for Mike's post, and I mean it too with you, I consider it to be an honour and a privilege to read what you write. Your heart comes through and you have really interesting perspectives that do make me think. You come across as an empathetic and tuned-in individual, and empathy is one of the qualities I most highly value. I can relate to your experiences, and will share some of mine later perhaps. It is a mysterious universe, sometimes painful, but also wondrous. There is very much we may never know, but sometimes it's the journey rather than the destination that matters.
Some of this stuff is so personal, you don't know sometimes if it is too too much for people who haven't been there to look at it.  My mother taught me the meaning of empathy so many years ago (she also, sadly, died too young, at 47) and the difference between it, and sympathy.  That old saying comes to mind, that a life unexamined, is not worth living. We are here to learn and to learn from each other.  What else makes any sense at all?
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 22:37
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

I really love how you delve so deeply into the process, Logan.  I admit, sometimes I am just answering in a sort of stream of consciousness way, to see how I arrive at the destination.  I, too, love seeing how others think of these things and how they get there.  We may never know these answers, but at least we ask the questions.  


Thank you. I'd like to do more stream of consciousness stuff, I am a terrific rambler, sometimes I do but these days it comes across as so incoherent. I always love reading your thoughts, Nickie, and I used the honour term already for Mike's post, and I mean it too with you, I consider it to be an honour and a privilege to read what you write. Your heart comes through and you have really interesting perspectives that do make me think. You come across as an empathetic and tuned-in individual, and empathy is one of the qualities I most highly value. I can relate to your experiences, and will share some of mine later perhaps. It is a mysterious universe, sometimes painful, but also wondrous. There is very much we may never know, but sometimes it's the journey rather than the destination that matters.
The first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 22:22
I’ll let you know when I get there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 22:18
I really love how you delve so deeply into the process, Logan.  I admit, sometimes I am just answering in a sort of stream of consciousness way, to see how I arrive at the destination.  I, too, love seeing how others think of these things and how they get there.  We may never know these answers, but at least we ask the questions.  
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 21:55
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Again, my Yes has nothing to do with religion. I am Catholic, all my life and will end this life as a Catholic, for sure I have wavered here and there as most do with religion. I don't ever see myself leaving the Catholic church.....but nothing in how I was raised or all the Catholic teachings makes me select Yes.

I just believe there is an afterlife. Now if the question is 100% scientific and only that then you can easily argue the answer is No, since there is no proof.

This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe. 
What we have been able to explore outside of Earth is akin to going outside your house and exploring your porch, no further. As Earthlings we will never have the ability to travel far enough and survive to find another human race. What we are made of exists in space......unlike the robots that roam this website.


I did a deeper a deeper dive on this I think in the Bertrand Russell thread, but belief as I've been saying I don't treat as synonymous knowledge (related and overlap, certainly, how much so and in what way depends on the angle).

Sorry to repeat myself, but if you consider something to be true, then that is a belief (it doesn't mean it's truth, but you believe it). You don't have to know with certainty, and if it is not a Truth then the belief is not true knowledge. Basically, knowledge is considered to be evidence-based whereas belief does not require evidence (justified belief should be justifiable). Knowledge should be based on evidence, on falsifiability, on perceivable truth (that I could have phrased better). If I don't see the evidence that something is true such as the afterlife, then my default is not to believe in it, even if I don't ultimately know (have access to truth writ large). It's compatible to say that "I don't believe in an afterlife and I don't know if there is an afterlife". And one can say "I don't believe in an afterlife nor do is disbelieve in an afterlife.

The question could be phrased as "Are you convinced that there is an afterlife?" I wonder then how many would say I don't know.

Science isn't about proof, it's about evidence. Now I'm quoting myself from the Liberal Deacalogue thread since I got really into this there:

"The burden of proof is used in law and logic, and formal debate, and in logic means that one should adequately demonstrate a thing to be if not absolutely true, valid reasoning for the assertion (premises should be considered acceptable, relevant and sufficient enough to convince people who have no skin in the game that the conclusion/assertion logically follows), or something similar, been ages since I studied it. Of course what's considered valid etc. depends upon the person, but in logic (and mathematics) the propositions should support the conclusion in acceptable ways that should satisfy the standards of logical reasoning. Making arguments in formal academic logic does have fairly universal standards, and it is a closed-system of propositions (within particular frameworks).

In science, it's about evidence as there is no proof. It's not a closed system and every theory is open to questioning, adaptation or scrapping when new evidence comes to light. Science is about trying to understand how the universe works, but it shouldn't be making absolute truth claims as everything is open to reevaluation -- hypotheses, theories and claims are provisional and tentative -- they are subject to change."

I think you may be confusing the knowledge concept with belief.

When you say, "This to me is the same as asking if there is life outside of our Earth........and my answer is of course there is, no way we are the only beings of our kind in the entire universe" in your analogy you are asking a different category of question to the one I intended. Is there life outside of Earth? I would expect so, I think so, but I don't know (I remain ultimately agnostic on the matter). Do I believe that there is life outside of Earth? Okay, I must admit that I would want to answer in a more nuanced way than yes or no. It seems highly unlikely to me from a probability standpoint that we are alone in the universe. I tend to believe so, but that belief is held tentatively, and I recognise that we lack "proof". I feel that there is justification to believe, or assume, that there is life outside of Earth despite any lack of evidence. I think that it is a reasonable assumption, but it still an assumption.

Of course knowledge and belief are related concepts, and it is said that a sound belief is based on evidence as well, and the time to believe is when something can be demonstrated. Do I have sufficient evidence for a firm belief in extraterrestrial life, no. Am I convinced that there are extra terrestrials, I am reasonably convinced, but it is not held as a true belief because of the lack of evidence even if it is true.

There is a relationship between belief and knowledge of course and I do not mean to,or can I, fully separate the two. In fact knowledge is sometimes called justified true belief.

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

don't feel the need to include an "unsure" or "other" option, though I expect that some would like to have that option. I'm more interested in what people have to say than poll results anyway. Answering yes or no does not require certainty. I don't believe that I can be certain of anything, and I am ultimately agnostic on all matters, which does not mean that I don't believe or am not convinced when it comes to many things....


yep! LOL

so "other" for me...  much as anything in life.. or hah.. the after life.. it ain't as simple as black and white ...

yes and no man..


Feel free to elaborate on your views any way you can. I'm more interested in people's thoughts and experiences than just how they vote. As I often say, the poll question should merely be treated as an accessory to discussion, and all tangents are welcome. I'm not meaning to force anyone to choose, and if it's other, that can be explained in a post so I can understand better your rationale. I hope you find reading through the read interesting at least. There is room for nuance, but I was approaching this from a particular philosophical standpoint by phrasing it in a dichotomous manner. If you needed a few beers to get through what I was trying to express in the Bertrand Russell topic where I discussed similar things, you might need a case to get through this. I do hope that believing and not believing in the afterlife simultaneously is not causing any cognitive dissonance.

Edited by Logan - July 24 2020 at 22:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 21:52
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

There sure could be a million other explanations......but that explanation could be the same for the millions of times things like this have happened to a family. Again, to me that could be enough "proof" to believe there is an afterlife, rather than not believe. So a question is did Ribsey behave like this normally?

Cool topic, endless discussion for sure.

Carry on....
  Ribsey's job in life was to be wherever Tom was.  He was Tom's dog before we re-met many years after the times we spent together in a larger group of friends and musicians.  We blended our pet families when we moved in together.  Ribsey now is my "guardian."  He follows me in the same way he followed Tom everywhere that he could.  So they certainly were bonded, but Ribsey would not normally whine in this way and then stare at the ceiling, he was just a silent shadow.  He was not a particularly vocal dog (rarely barks) until I became his raison d'tre.  Now he does vocalize, but still not barking, more "talking."  It sure seemed to me that he was aware of something, even though Tom no longer "lived," in that moment.  Another weird thing that happened is that we were playing a classical music station from the time we brought him back from the hospital for hospice care (he lived for just over two days), since they told us hearing is one of the last senses to remain.  He lived and breathed for music.  When his breath stopped, I looked at his son, then over at the clock, and then said, "8:00.  Exactly."  Dvorak's Largo from The New World Symphony began playing on the station.  

Edited by Snicolette - July 24 2020 at 21:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 21:35
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Atheist here.

Curious as to what the afterlife is for believers. Do you take memories and your body? Floating orb soul? No memories = wouldn't remember anyone. How will you find your dog? Wherever this place is wouldn't if have to be big? And those that don't make it, do they really burn in fire forever? That too me would say you need a body or vessel to feel pain. If you feel pain do the other senses work?
  For me, I don't know.  I just think I believe rather than disbelieve, which makes no logical sense. Just like I believe there could be other intelligent life off of this planet, which may never be proven scientifically.  I know some things I've experienced that can't be explained to any certainty.  I just know that until I don't know for certain, there are still possibilities.  I definitely don't believe that there is burning in eternity for those who don't follow one silly stricture or another, that is kind of absurd, since that one usually goes along with the idea of a god or gods.  Why would something so huge be so concerned with such small details of so many individuals?  I think that it is likely that there is more than one reality within these larger realms.  Or maybe not.  Smile  I am just not discounting it until I know for sure it is discountable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2020 at 21:30
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

I have a personal observation to add from when my husband died.  He was in our living room in a hospital bed and died at exactly 8AM.  His son and I were there, and the pets.  About an hour later, as we were waiting for the woman to arrive who would prepare him to be taken to cremation, I was sitting on the couch across from him, with our dog, Ribsey, dozing next to me on the couch.  Ribsey suddenly jerked his head up, aimed his ears toward him, then whined and jumped down off of the couch, ran over to him and licked his hand.  Then he backed up a pace and looked up toward the ceiling.  I cannot help but feel that that is when what many people would call "spirit," left his body.  I'm sure there are a million other explanations, but I do feel that whatever "energy" we are may stay for a bit and then move on, when it's ready.  Where does it go?  Thinking of what Catcher10 said, I think it goes into the stars somewhere.  My husband always said that the music just came to him, he just had to write it down and play it.  I do hope, if it is possible, he went to where the music came from.
There sure could be a million other explanations......but that explanation could be the same for the millions of times things like this have happened to a family. Again, to me that could be enough "proof" to believe there is an afterlife, rather than not believe. So a question is did Ribsey behave like this normally?

Cool topic, endless discussion for sure.

Carry on....
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