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Do you believe in an afterlife?

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Poll Question: Do you believe in an afterlife?
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Tillerman88 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2020 at 08:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Tbh, sometimes I feel like I have enough problems navigating this life to worry about another one. LOL

So why not stop meddling in this "problematic" discussion?? LOL
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2020 at 04:02
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

The real question is......If you have no evidence to prove otherwise, because nobody knows the answer, why do you chose to say No?
Fear....?
No, why do you choose to say Yes? Hope? Lack of belief is not abandonment of hope. Belief is a cognitive commitment. Lack of belief is simply an absence of a cognitive commitment. Not a denial. And yes, Fear (as in God-fearing and Hell) is something that Christianity has cultivated in concept. It is an act of projection to attribute it to the non-religious.



I say Yes because I have zero fear in being wrong. Again, my question has nothing to do with religion. So if you say No you still have hope its Yes??

Yes exactly. I say no and still hope it’s yes. To me ‘no’ refers to lack of belief.   Not a contrary disbelief. I also distinguish between believing and thinking. I do actively think an afterlife is unlikely, given our current knowledge of the natural world/universe. I do not make that a belief.

I do not think I am going to win the lottery. I do not believe that I will. I do not disbelieve that I could. I hope I will.





Edited by HackettFan - July 29 2020 at 04:04
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2020 at 08:48
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Tbh, sometimes I feel like I have enough problems navigating this life to worry about another one. LOL


So why not stop meddling in this "problematic" discussion?? LOL
Well, his position is my position too. Fine to philosophize about an afterlife, but if there is no genuine information about how to ensure it, or if it even needs to be ensured, why worry about it. If proper conduct is needed to ensure it, fine but then you are back looking at this life anyway. Who knows beyond that? Is faith needed? If so I’m screwed. I don’t see the moral high ground of faith, but who knows? I really refer people to Mandaean beliefs. Mandaeans hold John the Baptist as their most exalted prophet. They believe cleansing of sin is essential for preparing the way to the “light world”. Sin is accumulated in all sorts of (are to us) innocuous ways and has to be cleansed constantly through baptism. Their version of baptism requires flowing water, as from a river. Still non-flowing “cut” water can do more harm than good, which is how they view Jesus, as taking the easy way out and doing more harm than good. Now, if they’re right, Christians, generally baptized infrequently and in “cut” water are screwed. But who knows? How does one determine that a certain specific type of meditation doesn’t provide entry into the afterlife. One doesn’t. One can’t. Just live this life the best you see fit and see what happens.



A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2020 at 12:16
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Then you must look into ~

25489537



Thanks. I'll add that to my list of "books to get" the next time I go shopping online. I appreciate the recommendation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2020 at 18:22
Hi,

Too much religion in this thread ... it's getting tiresome! Feels like another Neal Morse Sunday Morning Constitutional already!

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2020 at 19:43
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I don't feel the need to include an "unsure" or "other" option, though I expect that some would like to have that option. I;m me interested in what people have to say than poll results anyway. Answering yes or no does not require certainty. I don't believe that I can be certain of anything, and I am ultimately agnostic on all matters, which does not mean that I don't believe or am not convinced when it comes to many things.

While I don't believe in an after life, that there is something positive "post death" would please me, perhaps not so much an after-life, more a sort of après-vie (to reference Douglas Adams).

Often people say rest in peace, but I don't want to want to rest in peace. I'd rather raise a little hell if it comes down to it. I would rather celebritas ad maximus (party to the max) than requiescat in pace.

Or generally be dead and loving it.



I have had various experiences that have swayed me into the there is something more camp at various times (I mean there is something more in some sense, but it depends upon what one means by something more). At times I have believed that our consciousness, or some such thing, spirit some would call it or a coherent energy, does continue in some form. Ultimately I don't know, but I do not believe so nor am I convinced that it does not. I see consciousness and personality as a product of the brain, and when the brain dies, I would not see why it would continue, but in another sense when thinking of the concept of energy of mind -- at least we need energy for the brain to function even if the energy is not mind itself -- there is the law of conservation of energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but transformed. A sea change into something rich and strange to go all Shakespeare. I don;t feel that I have good reason to believe that the pattern that make us us in a meaningful way continue after brain death. Some take it as a matter of faith,which can simply mean that I believe this despite having good or sufficient evidence to support my conviction. Or as described in the Bible, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

And to go with more Shakespeare, "There are more things in heaven and Earth ... than are dreamt of in your philosophy."



Sorry, I know that I haven't posed this as well as I could. With yet another mostly sleepless night, I do so wish that I could rest peacefully. Insomnia is a drag and I get it to the extreme. At least it gives me very long days and more time to waste.


Voted no but...

My family, my education... they were Catholic in a very intense way (priests and nuns in the family). I consider myself a doubter, not even an agnostic because I am not sure that there is no way to find out the truth. 

I believe we are immersed in a mystery: why does the world exist? the life? Why does the world exist and not nothing? either the created God, or the world has always existed, and is therefore ... God. the question on the principle of everything has no answer. An atheist believes that the origin of the world was made by himself (what was there before the Big Bang?) So I think the main difference is not between believers and atheists but between those who give an answer to the mystery of existence, and those who do not give it and remain in doubt and seek it. 

So in my opinion Logan's opposition is not an opposition: whoever says yes and who says no has given an answer. they are believers, they know what to believe. atheism is a church, in fact. 

the contrast should be between those who give the answer and those who do not. 


"Happiness is real only when shared"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProSammy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2020 at 04:47
Hi there,
Personally, I have struggled with the idea of whether there is a life after death. I consider myself agnostic, or athiest...I don't subscribe myself to any religion. My mother used to always say that when you are dead, you are gone. I have carried that belief with me throughout life.I have been working on the project on similar topic (https://dissertationhelp.org.uk/dissertation-topics/)... If there is a life after death, then it scares me cause I don't know what's there.


Edited by ProSammy - August 03 2020 at 00:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2020 at 19:18
Closer to Truth presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2020 at 12:15
“After your death, you will be what you were before your birth.” Arthur Schopenhauer
Shadow shadow, on the ground; dark in nature, come unbound. Cloak my body, strolling incog; render my soul, tranquil & sound. ∿ Shadowyzard Twoyylicht
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2020 at 14:56
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Voted no but...

My family, my education... they were Catholic in a very intense way (priests and nuns in the family). I consider myself a doubter, not even an agnostic because I am not sure that there is no way to find out the truth. 


A problem I have had with some agnostics I have known is that they expressed a belief that we cannot know or ever know if a God (or Gods) exists. Agnosticism entails a lack of knowledge, so that knowledge step was a step too far for me. I am a sceptic. I call myself an agnostic on all things to demonstrate my lack of certainty when it comes to all things. Mind you I would not say that knowledge requires absolute certainty. We can accept things as true and facts even if we cannot know assuredly, but all things I think should be open to scrutiny and all ideas subject to change (tentative knowledge).

Originally posted by JamesBaldwin JamesBaldwin wrote:

I believe we are immersed in a mystery: why does the world exist? the life? Why does the world exist and not nothing? either the created God, or the world has always existed, and is therefore ... God. the question on the principle of everything has no answer. An atheist believes that the origin of the world was made by himself (what was there before the Big Bang?) So I think the main difference is not between believers and atheists but between those who give an answer to the mystery of existence, and those who do not give it and remain in doubt and seek it. 


The universe and life is mysterious. I tend to think more in terms of "how" does the world exist? If there was nothing there would be nothing to ponder -- we couldn't ponder it. We don't tend to think that the world always existed, and we often think that the universe (at least our local known, and I suspect a much greater and eternal cosmos) had a beginning. How that happened is a mystery. Atheism is not a positive assertion, it just entails a lack of belief in a God or Gods (it means without/lacking theism). There are different types of atheists, some are positive atheists, they claim there is no God, and ones like me (soft or negative atheism) who lack belief in God, but do not claim that there is no God. Atheism does not make the claim that the origin of of the world was made my himself (not sure I understand that statement) -- it refers to being without theism. Atheists have a wide range of beliefs and a spectrum of disbelief. The implicit atheist need not have any conception of God, or even have been exposed to a God concept. With explicit atheism, it's better thought of as lacking belief on one issue, God or Gods. On a related note, theists often don't agree on what God is and what attributes God has, so even when talking notions of God, it helps to understand the form of the God that is being professed. A theist of one stripe could be said to be an atheist when it comes to another God in this sense. And of course there are so many notions of the afterlife.

Bertrand Russell said, "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." And with Plato, paraphrased, "The first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance".

Originally posted by JamesBaldwn JamesBaldwn wrote:

So in my opinion Logan's opposition is not an opposition: whoever says yes and who says no has given an answer. they are believers, they know what to believe. atheism is a church, in fact. the contrast should be between those who give the answer and those who do not. 


My primary interest in making this topic was on the notion of "belief" itself. My opposition, if one would call it that, mostly involves how others think that I should have framed this topic and on what belief means (as well as some general epistemological issues). Had I asked the question, "Is there an afterlife", then I would have put a third option. To me it's not an interesting question because I don't think that we can know (won't say we can never know), and am more interested in what people believe/ are convinced of and "why?" I am not a believer, I lack belief. I am not convinced that there is an afterlife, ergo I do not believe in a afterlife. This is not me claiming that there is no afterlife. It does not require that I believe that there is no afterlife to say that I do not believe in an afterlife. I do not know and I lack belief in it. I do not believe in the Loch Ness monster, but I could imagine that the Loch Ness monster does exist. I wont say that it doesn't. I will say that to my knowledge there is not compelling evidence to conclude that there the Lock Ness Monster exists, and thus I do not believe it exists. If strong evidence comes that there is a Lock Ness Monster, then I will reevaluate that lack of belief, and maybe become a believer (it does not require certainty). There are a huge number of things I don't believe in that I might comes to believe later.

This discussion I got into elsewhere with someone who made a similar claim to that atheism is church one, in that case it was that atheism is a religion, but I couldn't understand a rational argument for that assertion so I cannot believe that. I would have to be convinced to believe it. We are opposed, it seems, in thinking about "I don't believe", or "I lack belief" as belief rather than as a non-belief and on notions of what it means to be atheist as well as other things it seems. It's not about knowing what to believe, it's just about what you are convinced of to me. An atheist could believe in the afterlife, an atheist can be unsure about that and the existence of God. A belief system without God, but that believes in the afterlife is possible. To me that's something of a non-sequitur. If atheism is a church, then it's a very broad church. Atheists have such a wide variety of beliefs on so many issues. The only thing that is shared is lacking theism (atheism meaning without theism). If God or the afterlife (neither requires the other that I know of) was demonstrated to exist, then I expect that I would be a believer. I still might not be certain, but I may be convinced. Anyway, it seems you're thinking of a very dogmatic version of atheism that holds a more coherent world-view than I would ascribe to atheism generally that I do not fall into, and neither do many atheists/ non-believers.

So I'm not saying that there is no afterlife, or God, I'm just saying that I'm not convinced. By saying that I don't believe in the afterlife, I'm not claiming that the proposition that there is an afterlife (or God) is false. Others do. As I said earlier on these issues there is a spectrum of belief and disbelief -- say, a positive belief that the afterlife or God does not exist, a positive belief to the contrary, and a lack of belief either way. If one lacks belief then I would expect a "no" vote, and if one believes that there is no afterlife than I would also expect a "no' vote. Some are convinced that there is no afterlife, some are not, and both can say that they don't believe in an afterlife (are not convinced).

I have been trying over many posts to explain my position and why I think yes and no is a fair question when it comes to belief (but I wouldn't take that approach if I asked about what you know) and I hope this doesn't muddy the waters more.

Perhaps my next topic will be "Do you believe that there are invisible and mostly intangible fairies in my underpants?" They only make themselves known when no one is paying attention, by the way. I don't even if it might explain some queer things that have happened there. I won't do that.

Edited by Logan - August 10 2020 at 15:25
"The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt" (Bertrand Russell).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2020 at 16:42
Interesting topic.
So...to be clear...I'm a bit of a hypocrite.

While I myself don't really believe in an after "life", I know I will be immortal as my essence in whatever form is left (I'll be cremated) will continue to permeate the universe, as all matter that is will be. But that ain't life!

On the other hand, both my folks were people of faith and both were cremated. After my mom passed I asked the funeral director if she could ensure that both their ashes were mixed together in a single container. The norm is for each persons ashes to be contained in a separate bag within the urn. But knowing my folks, if there was even a teeny tiny infinitesimal chance that there was an afterlife, no way was I going to be the one that kept them apart for all of eternity. I don't need that hanging over me.

BTW, for what it's worth, my mom passed on Feb. 13th. less than a year after my dad, no way was she going to miss a valentine's day with him after 65 years of marriage. It's funny how stuff like that plays out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 19:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Voted no but...

My family, my education... they were Catholic in a very intense way (priests and nuns in the family). I consider myself a doubter, not even an agnostic because I am not sure that there is no way to find out the truth. 


A problem I have had with some agnostics I have known is that they expressed a belief that we cannot know or ever know if a God (or Gods) exists. Agnosticism entails a lack of knowledge, so that knowledge step was a step too far for me. I am a sceptic. I call myself an agnostic on all things to demonstrate my lack of certainty when it comes to all things. Mind you I would not say that knowledge requires absolute certainty. We can accept things as true and facts even if we cannot know assuredly, but all things I think should be open to scrutiny and all ideas subject to change (tentative knowledge).

Originally posted by JamesBaldwin JamesBaldwin wrote:

I believe we are immersed in a mystery: why does the world exist? the life? Why does the world exist and not nothing? either the created God, or the world has always existed, and is therefore ... God. the question on the principle of everything has no answer. An atheist believes that the origin of the world was made by himself (what was there before the Big Bang?) So I think the main difference is not between believers and atheists but between those who give an answer to the mystery of existence, and those who do not give it and remain in doubt and seek it. 


The universe and life is mysterious. I tend to think more in terms of "how" does the world exist? If there was nothing there would be nothing to ponder -- we couldn't ponder it. We don't tend to think that the world always existed, and we often think that the universe (at least our local known, and I suspect a much greater and eternal cosmos) had a beginning. How that happened is a mystery. Atheism is not a positive assertion, it just entails a lack of belief in a God or Gods (it means without/lacking theism). There are different types of atheists, some are positive atheists, they claim there is no God, and ones like me (soft or negative atheism) who lack belief in God, but do not claim that there is no God. Atheism does not make the claim that the origin of of the world was made my himself (not sure I understand that statement) -- it refers to being without theism. Atheists have a wide range of beliefs and a spectrum of disbelief. The implicit atheist need not have any conception of God, or even have been exposed to a God concept. With explicit atheism, it's better thought of as lacking belief on one issue, God or Gods. On a related note, theists often don't agree on what God is and what attributes God has, so even when talking notions of God, it helps to understand the form of the God that is being professed. A theist of one stripe could be said to be an atheist when it comes to another God in this sense. And of course there are so many notions of the afterlife.

Bertrand Russell said, "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." And with Plato, paraphrased, "The first step on the road to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance".

Originally posted by JamesBaldwn JamesBaldwn wrote:

So in my opinion Logan's opposition is not an opposition: whoever says yes and who says no has given an answer. they are believers, they know what to believe. atheism is a church, in fact. the contrast should be between those who give the answer and those who do not. 


My primary interest in making this topic was on the notion of "belief" itself. My opposition, if one would call it that, mostly involves how others think that I should have framed this topic and on what belief means (as well as some general epistemological issues). Had I asked the question, "Is there an afterlife", then I would have put a third option. To me it's not an interesting question because I don't think that we can know (won't say we can never know), and am more interested in what people believe/ are convinced of and "why?" I am not a believer, I lack belief. I am not convinced that there is an afterlife, ergo I do not believe in a afterlife. This is not me claiming that there is no afterlife. It does not require that I believe that there is no afterlife to say that I do not believe in an afterlife. I do not know and I lack belief in it. I do not believe in the Loch Ness monster, but I could imagine that the Loch Ness monster does exist. I wont say that it doesn't. I will say that to my knowledge there is not compelling evidence to conclude that there the Lock Ness Monster exists, and thus I do not believe it exists. If strong evidence comes that there is a Lock Ness Monster, then I will reevaluate that lack of belief, and maybe become a believer (it does not require certainty). There are a huge number of things I don't believe in that I might comes to believe later.

This discussion I got into elsewhere with someone who made a similar claim to that atheism is church one, in that case it was that atheism is a religion, but I couldn't understand a rational argument for that assertion so I cannot believe that. I would have to be convinced to believe it. We are opposed, it seems, in thinking about "I don't believe", or "I lack belief" as belief rather than as a non-belief and on notions of what it means to be atheist as well as other things it seems. It's not about knowing what to believe, it's just about what you are convinced of to me. An atheist could believe in the afterlife, an atheist can be unsure about that and the existence of God. A belief system without God, but that believes in the afterlife is possible. To me that's something of a non-sequitur. If atheism is a church, then it's a very broad church. Atheists have such a wide variety of beliefs on so many issues. The only thing that is shared is lacking theism (atheism meaning without theism). If God or the afterlife (neither requires the other that I know of) was demonstrated to exist, then I expect that I would be a believer. I still might not be certain, but I may be convinced. Anyway, it seems you're thinking of a very dogmatic version of atheism that holds a more coherent world-view than I would ascribe to atheism generally that I do not fall into, and neither do many atheists/ non-believers.

So I'm not saying that there is no afterlife, or God, I'm just saying that I'm not convinced. By saying that I don't believe in the afterlife, I'm not claiming that the proposition that there is an afterlife (or God) is false. Others do. As I said earlier on these issues there is a spectrum of belief and disbelief -- say, a positive belief that the afterlife or God does not exist, a positive belief to the contrary, and a lack of belief either way. If one lacks belief then I would expect a "no" vote, and if one believes that there is no afterlife than I would also expect a "no' vote. Some are convinced that there is no afterlife, some are not, and both can say that they don't believe in an afterlife (are not convinced).

I have been trying over many posts to explain my position and why I think yes and no is a fair question when it comes to belief (but I wouldn't take that approach if I asked about what you know) and I hope this doesn't muddy the waters more.

Perhaps my next topic will be "Do you believe that there are invisible and mostly intangible fairies in my underpants?" They only make themselves known when no one is paying attention, by the way. I don't even if it might explain some queer things that have happened there. I won't do that.



I endorse all that. Just two additional things. I sometimes have trouble with agnostics because they indicate that the question of the existence of God can be solved by positive evidence. Existence of a creator can be solved by positive evidence. There is actually no reason to presume that a creator equals God without making additional theological presumptions. Without evidence for these additional theological conclusions, the existence of God is simply an undebatable opinion. Some religions in fact do distinguish between the creator and a god worthy of worship (e.g. Zoroastrianism and some versions of Gnostic Christianity, Mandaeanism).

I think there is another layer of belief beyond what you and I have talked about - beyond the notion of pretending to know something one does not actually know. I think it goes further than that. A full-fledged religious belief is something which is made true by the very act of believing (Actually it May not be exclusively religious. Gamblers seem to do something similar in always convincing themselves the next one is the winner.). I refuse to subscribe to that kind of non-naturalistic epistemology. An afterlife is or isn’t. But I don’t think my belief or anyone else’s belief will make it so - And for me, that is the core of what makes me an atheist.


A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 20:06
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

I have discussed this with you before, and yes, I do.  Shakespeare said so many things so perfectly, and even with the scientific knowledge we do have now, this (and more from his pen) still rings true.  I have certainly witnessed things that I cannot explain otherwise, so I will cast my vote firmly on the "yes," side.  Also, yes to the often laughable way that these things present themselves.


I’m with you on this one.   
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I'm still having trouble in believing in afterbirth so..... Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Crimson Mellotron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2020 at 10:44
I'll say yes. Either this, or death as an eternal sleep. Just two plausible endings. Does the soul migrate from this world to enter another one? We'll never know, and no one came back to tell us... But I believe that first, death is not an end, it should be though of as a transition. From there on, depending on one's soul, it will either enter the afterlife or enter this eternal sleep I mentioned. Afterlife is possible when the soul knows that there are things left undone, so it would naturally seek to reorganize itself, at least that is how I see it.
'To know yourself is self-contagious'
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