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Never mind Tales From Topographic Oceans or A Passion Play. If you want prog that takes everything to brutal prog extremes then check out XHOHX. The only extremity they don't engage in with their only album is length of tracks. Otherwise it's brutal prog for its own sake. Insanity in sound!
BTW, news flash......Progressive music was a part of popular music, but in the general sense.
Exactly.
So-called Progressive music, although derived from the then Underground music
scene, never was considered as a "serious" avant-garde music but as a
part of popular music in a general sense (i.e. not popular music in the
sense of 'Pop'). As such, "Prog" never had a chance to "going too far" even
if the artists wanted to. Unlike Bandcamp where one can upload
whatever he / she wants, at the time the record companies were the real ones and they wouldn't allow the artists to "going
too far". Hence this part of an interview from 1976, with the electronic
music genius Vangelis Papathanassiou, might be illustrative:
How does Vangelis view the musical changes he has gone through since Aphrodite’s Child and his solo-LP "Earth"?
Vangelis: "Three
years ago already I could have made a record like Heaven and Hell.
Technically speaking I was ready for it. Why I didn’t do it back then?
Because the pop-market wasn’t ready for it at that moment. Some of the
recordings I made 10 years ago are musically and technically speaking
more complex than Heaven and Hell. The problem you have to deal with as a
musician and creator of music is that you have to fight against a
market, a record-company and a world for brainwashed people. As creator
or performer of pop-music in 1976 you very quickly become the victim of
the economic powers of this world who have meanwhile also taken over
pop-music. In the sixties the creation and performance of pop-music was a
form of (social) protest. Now the creation and performance of pop-music
have become big business and most pop-musicians are photo-models in
disguise who behave like mindless marionettes in the service of the
public and the record-companies."
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
BTW, news flash......Progressive music was a part of popular music, but in the general sense.
Exactly.
So-called Progressive music, although derived from the then Underground music
scene, never was considered as a "serious" avant-garde music but as a
part of popular music in a general sense (i.e. not popular music in the
sense of 'Pop'). As such, "Prog" never had a chance to "going too far" even
if the artists wanted to. Unlike Bandcamp where one can upload
whatever he / she wants, at the time the record companies were the real ones and they wouldn't allow the artists to "going
too far". Hence this part of an interview from 1976, with the electronic
music genius Vangelis Papathanassiou, might be illustrative:
How does Vangelis view the musical changes he has gone through since Aphrodite’s Child and his solo-LP "Earth"?
Vangelis: "Three
years ago already I could have made a record like Heaven and Hell.
Technically speaking I was ready for it. Why I didn’t do it back then?
Because the pop-market wasn’t ready for it at that moment. Some of the
recordings I made 10 years ago are musically and technically speaking
more complex than Heaven and Hell. The problem you have to deal with as a
musician and creator of music is that you have to fight against a
market, a record-company and a world for brainwashed people. As creator
or performer of pop-music in 1976 you very quickly become the victim of
the economic powers of this world who have meanwhile also taken over
pop-music. In the sixties the creation and performance of pop-music was a
form of (social) protest. Now the creation and performance of pop-music
have become big business and most pop-musicians are photo-models in
disguise who behave like mindless marionettes in the service of the
public and the record-companies."
So what is your point?? Because Vangelis was not able to do this, it applies to all artists? You're a very simpleton person it seems.
I've posted that Vangelis' interview from 1976 as an illustrative example of what I want to say. Another example would be Rock in Opposition movement from 1978. Rock in Opposition is a genre today, but back then it was a movement representing a collective of experimental rock bands united in their opposition to the music industry that refused to recognize their music. English experimental rock band Henry Cow had invited four bands from Europe to come to London and perform at a festival called "Rock in Opposition" in March 1978. Henry Cow were de facto ignored in England, and spent five years touring Continental Europe. Thus Henry Cow had encountered some experimental bands who were virtually unknown outside their European countries. What Henry Cow had familiar with those bands was that the record companies weren't interested in their music. Henry Cow's contract with Virgin Records was canceled when Virgin found that Henry Cow weren't making money for them. And Virgin was a record company that was dealing with Progressive music at the time.
There could be no "went too far" because Progressive music was still a part of popular music in the general sense. The record companies, which at the time were real even when dealing with experimental stuff, would not allow it.
Yeah, this is a poor argument man. Record executives go with what they think will sell, regardless. If TFTO would have been better as a 8 part record, they'd have done it, and half of us would love it/hate it, believe me.
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Good philosophical questions. Going too far doesn't necessarily mean breaking the rules because as you said who creates the rules? It can only be an arbitrary judgement at best. When I started the parent thread what I had in mind was going too far from the perspective of someone who was not already a prog fan. Someone who only knows regular rock or maybe classic rock and what they might think of it. I then thought that they might think certain bands or albums were going too far based on the parameters that are usually set by the mainstream(regular radio, etc.).
So to look at this a bit closer "stairway to heaven," "free bird" or "hotel california" or even "roundabout" wouldn't be going too far, even though they were longer, because they are familiar to most classic rock fans and are typically considered mainstream. Anything beyond that might be considered going "too far." Then again maybe not. If we take prog out of the equation how many people would think "Alice's Restaurant" or "In a gadda da vida" was going too far? That's why maybe song length isn't the only factor.
For the most part some of the bands who had albums that for me went too far(in a good way though) were:
Jethro Tull
Nektar
The FLower Kings
Transatlantic
ELP
Spock's Beard
Genesis (lamb)
Yes -TFTO and relayer
Tangerine Dream (phaedra)
Plus whoever else I mentioned in my initial thread that asked about prog going too far.
Thank you, you've uncovered exactly why I made this thread at this time. Now, apply it to all topics on prog! Where does it end? What is END, if not implying a START? Was the start caveman prog?
Great comments in this thread guys keep them coming.
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
There could be no "went too far" because Progressive music was still a part of popular music in the general sense. The record companies, which at the time were real even when dealing with experimental stuff, would not allow it.
Yeah, this is a poor argument man. Record executives go with what they think will sell, regardless. If TFTO would have been better as a 8 part record, they'd have done it, and half of us would love it/hate it, believe me.
I'm afraid that "Tales from the Topographic Oceans" is a "normal" Prog Rock album compared to the stuff I already mentioned on this thread.
There could be no "went too far" because Progressive music was still a part of popular music in the general sense. The record companies, which at the time were real even when dealing with experimental stuff, would not allow it.
Yeah, this is a poor argument man. Record executives go with what they think will sell, regardless. If TFTO would have been better as a 8 part record, they'd have done it, and half of us would love it/hate it, believe me.
I'm afraid that "Tales from the Topographic Oceans" is a "normal" Prog Rock album compared to the stuff I already mentioned on this thread.
They still have nothing on the two albums in my last post IMHO. Those two are pinnacles of avant WTF-ness.
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
I don't know why TFTO is considered so far out. Most of it is not so different from CTTE and the later ones like 'Relayer'. The biggest issues are some very poor solo guitar bits and a lot of time wasting noodling.
There could be no "went too far" because Progressive music was still a part of popular music in the general sense. The record companies, which at the time were real even when dealing with experimental stuff, would not allow it.
Yeah, this is a poor argument man. Record executives go with what they think will sell, regardless. If TFTO would have been better as a 8 part record, they'd have done it, and half of us would love it/hate it, believe me.
I'm afraid that "Tales from the Topographic Oceans" is a "normal" Prog Rock album compared to the stuff I already mentioned on this thread.
They still have nothing on the two albums in my last post IMHO. Those two are pinnacles of avant WTF-ness.
Okay,
I don't deny that.In addition, I'd like to add these:
Henry Cow - "Extract From With The Yellow Half-Moon And Blue Star" (1973)
Samla Mammas Manna - "Oförutsedd Förlossning" (1973)
Univers Zero - "Ronde" (1977)
Brian Eno wasn't a part of above mentioned Rock in Opposition movement but I'd like to mention this experimental record as well.
Brian Eno (feat. Robert Wyatt, Rhett Davies) - "1/1" (1978)
There could be no "went too far" because Progressive music was still a part of popular music in the general sense. The record companies, which at the time were real even when dealing with experimental stuff, would not allow it.
Yeah, this is a poor argument man. Record executives go with what they think will sell, regardless. If TFTO would have been better as a 8 part record, they'd have done it, and half of us would love it/hate it, believe me.
You're interjecting 80s and 90s industry trends with record company practices of the early 70s. After the 60s, record companies in the early 70s didn't know what was going to be the next big seller as the previous decade was full of surprises. It was more a case of "let's throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks." That's why we have albums like TFTO by Yes and The Lamb by Genesis. Once the smoke cleared, then the record companies started to dictate the current musical trends to their artists and take over artistic control to high degree.
Edited by SteveG - September 17 2020 at 04:24
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Ummagumma Studio album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways, everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
Ummagumma Studio
album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and
not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't
released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a
single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock
album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like
that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and
innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I
find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is
a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once
again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways,
everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so
good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
If you like the experimental psychedelia, then you'll surely like "Monster Movie" the album by Can, released the same year.
Ummagumma Studio album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways, everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
Ummagumma is a top 3 Floyd album for me so I'm not saying I don't like it, I do, a lot. The question was did they go too far. Personally I love out there stuff so I'm not a good judge. It was just an example that popped into my head of when the band got away with doing stuff you normally wouldn't expect and could possibly be termed 'too far'.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Ummagumma Studio album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways, everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
Ummagumma Studio
album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and
not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't
released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a
single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock
album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like
that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and
innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I
find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is
a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once
again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways,
everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so
good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
If you like the experimental psychedelia, then you'll surely like "Monster Movie" the album by Can, released the same year.
Can - "You Doo Right" (1969)
Great, don't know this. Will definitely check it out. Thank you for the suggestion!
Ummagumma Studio album is probably a case where they let the band do what they wanted and not turning out great, I'm kinda glad that Household Objects wasn't released at the time.
Can't agree with you for a single bit here. I find 'Ummagumma' a truly gorgeous progressive rock album with all its strengths and faults. No one EVER did something like that, or no one ever tried to. In that sense, it is a truly unique and innovative record. And does it really sound so bad.? Don't think so, I find it enjoyable.
As for the Household Objects project, it is a thing that could have been very fascinating to hear... Because once again, who else has the balls to try something that odd???
Anyways, everything happens for a reason, so probably the results were not so good for this one, but definitely not for 'Ummagumma'...
Ummagumma is a top 3 Floyd album for me so I'm not saying I don't like it, I do, a lot. The question was did they go too far. Personally I love out there stuff so I'm not a good judge. It was just an example that popped into my head of when the band got away with doing stuff you normally wouldn't expect and could possibly be termed 'too far'.
I think it's worth noting that by modern standards Ummgumma may seem tame but at the time of the album's release in 1969 it was quite outre.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Boboulo wrote:
