Cardiacs-Pendragon: Saved by You In a City Lining

Go cardiacs!!!!!!!

Oranges.

Lewian wrote: Oranges.

And here I thought you'd go with apples: Granny Smith apples to be precise.

verslibre wrote: To quote David Spade, I'm gonna "take the hit"! I'm the Pendragon vote. "Saved by You" is, well, innocuous. Pleasant rock tune. They have better non-prog fare, like "The Mask" and "Contact." The first two minutes of "In a City Lining" is better, but the rest of it's a chore for me to get through. I just don't like the guy's voice.

The Mask actually I'd heard before, as well as some other more Prog ones off the album (some of the music reminded me a lot of Supertramp -- maybe the song "kowtow" from memory), but this is the one that came up based on other listening in the queue. Sometimes I like to listen to music that way and get exposed to new-to-me-things. Tim Smith can be shouty and quite aggressive in tone (in fact that became part of the stage persona). I've read that when Fish had Cardiacs open for Marillion, Cardiacs was booed (which might well have upset Fish more than anyone). I came to like the coarse punk qualities of Smith's singing (although in some he's louder and more punk than in others, and at first I wasn't into the more circus-like ones). I might do one one more of these from the albums or from other albums. I would maybe go with I Walk the Rope from Pendragon due to the sax, and what I love about various Cardiacs music is Sarah Smith's sax. Yeah, maybe that and Stoneage Dinosaurs would work well as a pairing and Tim Smith is more subdued there. No wait, 2 AM would work better from Pendragon.

Edited by Logan - February 12 2021 at 20:00

Pendragon - Saved by You

Logan wrote: verslibre wrote: To quote David Spade, I'm gonna "take the hit"! I'm the Pendragon vote. "Saved by You" is, well, innocuous. Pleasant rock tune. They have better non-prog fare, like "The Mask" and "Contact." The first two minutes of "In a City Lining" is better, but the rest of it's a chore for me to get through. I just don't like the guy's voice. The Mask actually I'd heard before, as well as some other more Prog ones off the album (some of the music reminded me a lot of Supertramp -- maybe the song "kowtow" from memory), but this is the one that came up based on other listening in the queue. Sometimes I like to listen to music that way and get exposed to new-to-me-things. Tim Smith can be shouty and quite aggressive in tone (in fact that became part of the stage persona). I've read that when Fish had Cardiacs open for Marillion, Cardiacs was booed (which might well have upset Fish more than anyone). I came to like the coarse punk qualities of Smith's singing (although in some he's louder and more punk than in others, and at first I wasn't into the more circus-like ones). I might do one one more of these from the albums or from other albums. I would maybe go with I Walk the Rope from Pendragon due to the sax, and what I love about various Cardiacs music is Sarah Smith's sax. Yeah, maybe that and Stoneage Dinosaurs would work well as a pairing and Tim Smith is more subdued there. No wait, 2 AM would work better from Pendragon.

verslibre wrote: Logan wrote: verslibre wrote: To quote David Spade, I'm gonna "take the hit"! I'm the Pendragon vote. "Saved by You" is, well, innocuous. Pleasant rock tune. They have better non-prog fare, like "The Mask" and "Contact." The first two minutes of "In a City Lining" is better, but the rest of it's a chore for me to get through. I just don't like the guy's voice. The Mask actually I'd heard before, as well as some other more Prog ones off the album (some of the music reminded me a lot of Supertramp -- maybe the song "kowtow" from memory), but this is the one that came up based on other listening in the queue. Sometimes I like to listen to music that way and get exposed to new-to-me-things. Tim Smith can be shouty and quite aggressive in tone (in fact that became part of the stage persona). I've read that when Fish had Cardiacs open for Marillion, Cardiacs was booed (which might well have upset Fish more than anyone). I came to like the coarse punk qualities of Smith's singing (although in some he's louder and more punk than in others, and at first I wasn't into the more circus-like ones). I might do one one more of these from the albums or from other albums. I would maybe go with I Walk the Rope from Pendragon due to the sax, and what I love about various Cardiacs music is Sarah Smith's sax. Yeah, maybe that and Stoneage Dinosaurs would work well as a pairing and Tim Smith is more subdued there. No wait, 2 AM would work better from Pendragon. It's not the aggression or style, it's just his voice. Some singers' voices I can't get into. Another guy is Roland Orzabal. Maybe Tears for Fears is the best band in the multiverse, but I'll never know because I don't like that guy's voice. Morrissey, too.

I get that. I can empathise with someone who doesn't enjoy Tim Smith's vocals, but I couldn't think of the right words to describe the characteristics of his voice (grating which I see used in my other poll is one of the words I wanted). In fact I've recommended Cardiacs instrumental music before to people who didn't like the voice, much as I've done with Peter Hammill (of course Peter Hammill has the "better" voice, but many just don't like it).   I also don't like the vocals in Tears For Fears, and I didn't like Tim Smith's voice either in the early days of hearing the band (it's kind of whiny and it's partially the accent, just the tone, timbre...), but grew to accept and appreciate them, which is not to say that you ever should, of course. With Pendragon, I don't think that Nick Barrett has a good voice. It's also whiny, and sometimes sounds like he's doing impersonations of other people (like Roger Hodgson). Which is not to say that I dislike it.

Edited by Logan - February 13 2021 at 09:28

Funny you mention Twelth Night and Geoff Mann, I played Fact and Fiction last night which is one of my favourite albums included in our Neo-Prog category.

Not that I do polls as contests, but this seemed quite a good match-up in terms of votes (seven each). Often I do ones that turn out to be very lopsided.

Edited by Logan - February 13 2021 at 10:10

suitkees wrote: At first sight a bizarre association indeed, but while listening to both I can understand some link between the two. Now, I am not going to be tender with Pendragon here. I quite like the band, although they have never been one of my top favourites (not even in my neo-prog 80s). Saved By You is imo their failed attempt to a "let's write our breakthrough pop song and bring prog to the masses"-song. It didn't even make the original KowTow album, which was in itself already a big deception after the great The Jewel. Fortunately they later turned back and stuck to what they do better: writing prog songs/compositions. Saved By You is just proof that they are very, very, very, and I really mean very bad in writing a pop song. It lacks everything: originality (both musically and lyrically), inspiration, incarnation, creativity... even the clip is bad. It's really bad... The Cardiacs song shows creativity, musicality, and also just the sheer fun they have doing this, pretentiousless fun and music well done (although I can also understand that it is not up everyone's alley with his characteristic voice and the changes in pace and style...).

I almost certainly would not have made the association if it weren't for the fact that I made the association before between a Cardiacs song and a Pendragon song. Maybe because its been said by, say, ManWithHat, that there is nothing progressive about Cardiacs music (I presented my counterargument as we had a difference of opinion, but I still absorb ideas and try to find a middle ground and synthesis of ideas) that it seemed to make more sense to pair Cardiacs up with less "progressive" Pendragon from that perspective. Cardiacs was always a kind of art pop and art rock band (and I argued progressive pop and rock as well).

If going more popular from a kind of pop-rock context, then I could go with the more mainstream "Is This the Life?" I mentioned that this turned out to be a very evenly matched pair of songs in terms of votes, although I know some will vote for their preferred band no matter what (and some vote without knowing both, not that I'm accusing anyone of that here). I like this Pendragon song for what it is even though, not surprisingly, the Cardiacs choice is much more my thing. I love Cardiacs, and I think this is a very fine song (although not one I've tended to highlight in past Cardiacs polls).

On a side-note, whether the Pendragon one is bad or not (one could debate its objective merits), being bad does not necessarily take away from my enjoyment of songs or films, and there's a whole class of so bad they're good that I love (objectively inept yet subjectively I truly appreciate them). I genuinely love The Shagg's Philosophy of the World despite (or actually more because of) its reputation. I know many people say that Zardoz is a really bad movie, but I love it and find it poignant (to me that is not even objectively bad even if it has its ludicrous moments). I like Ed Wood films very much, which are more of the quite inept variety, but seem sincere. I love a certain Magma piece (Otis done for French TV) that could be called so bad its good (more strangely weird and amusing in its apparent earnestness than objectively bad methinks). Badness can be part of the charm nd even bad can sound good to these ears.

Heard some of The Jewel, but will listen to that soon in full. I like that it has shorter songs than some others -- some Pendragon stretches out its idea far too much and thin for me (an issue I have with much symphonic prog and prog metal and various Neo-Prog, and well, I could think of examples in every category at PA actually).

I do like to do polls that hopefully will expose different audiences to music they might not normally listen to, but I do prefer my comparisons that I at least recognise when they have similarities as well as contrasts commonly.

Edited by Logan - February 13 2021 at 10:43

Logan wrote: Funny you mention Twelth Night and Geoff Mann, I played Fact and Fiction last night which is one of my favourite albums included in our Neo-Prog category.