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Steeleye Span - Dodgy b*****ds rating issue

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PlanetRodentia2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlanetRodentia2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Steeleye Span - Dodgy b*****ds rating issue
    Posted: April 10 2021 at 10:15
I noticed that Steeleye Span's "Dodgy b*****ds" album received five 5 star ratings (100% 5 stars), but the average rating is 4.20.  How is that possible?  Unless there is some bizarre wrinkle in the calculus that I don't know about, I suspect there's a bug on that page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 10:47
Done worry, none of them make any sense in the way they are shown.
How do you get 56% from 10 ratings on three stars?  I guess 5.6 people voted three star Wink.  My math makes this one a 3.6 average rating assuming 2 + 2 + 6 = 10 = 36/50 = 72% of 5 star = 3.6 Stars

They all seem to be wrong unless some other logic that is not known is used.


Edited by Spaciousmind - April 10 2021 at 10:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 10:54
There is some kind of witchcraft (aka an algorithm) involved, I believe ratings/reviews from Collaborators get more of a weighting and that Steeleye Span album has 0 reviews, just ratings.

I'm sure somebody will post the actual details here soon.


Edited by chopper - April 10 2021 at 10:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 10:56
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

There is some kind of witchcraft (aka an algorithm) involved, I believe ratings from Collaborators get more of a weighting.

Ah so you are confirming a complete lack of transparency??  or voting irregularites... like let me see Women votes don't count as much! LOL


Edited by Spaciousmind - April 10 2021 at 11:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 11:02
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Done worry, none of them make any sense in the way they are shown.
How do you get 56% from 10 ratings on three stars?  I guess 5.6 people voted three star Wink.  My math makes this one a 3.6 average rating assuming 2 + 2 + 6 = 10 = 36/50 = 72% of 5 star = 3.6 Stars

They all seem to be wrong unless some other logic that is not known is used.

are there reviews, they are counted separately. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 11:14
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Done worry, none of them make any sense in the way they are shown.
How do you get 56% from 10 ratings on three stars?  I guess 5.6 people voted three star Wink.  My math makes this one a 3.6 average rating assuming 2 + 2 + 6 = 10 = 36/50 = 72% of 5 star = 3.6 Stars

They all seem to be wrong unless some other logic that is not known is used.

are there reviews, they are counted separately. 

Only one which rated at 3 star which would still not explain the math.  The first posted question has no reviews.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 11:46
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

There is some kind of witchcraft (aka an algorithm) involved, I believe ratings/reviews from Collaborators get more of a weighting and that Steeleye Span album has 0 reviews, just ratings.

I'm sure somebody will post the actual details here soon.

You realize what you are saying right... Say a reviewer gets a privileged weight of = say equivalent of 10 raters and a couple of sheep reviewers follow his suit.  Then that album is destined into the trash can as it will never get out of a bad rating, regardless of what others might think.

Why not just say Reviewer rating = x.xx
Non-Reviewer rating = y.yy

And let the readers enjoy seeing the comparison?

Nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 11:48
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

There is some kind of witchcraft (aka an algorithm) involved, I believe ratings from Collaborators get more of a weighting.

Ah so you are confirming a complete lack of transparency??  or voting irregularites... like let me see Women votes don't count as much! LOL

I don't know the exact details of the algorithm, but this question has been asked and explained before. No doubt someone in the know will explain it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 12:16
Originally posted by PlanetRodentia2 PlanetRodentia2 wrote:

I noticed that Steeleye Span's "Dodgy b*****ds" album received five 5 star ratings (100% 5 stars), but the average rating is 4.20.  How is that possible?  Unless there is some bizarre wrinkle in the calculus that I don't know about, I suspect there's a bug on that page.


Well it is "dodgy" after all. I would imagine that this might be because there was a lower rating and that was deleted (or adapted) and this change was not updated in the average rating.

As for the issue of weightings, this is explained in Reviews guidelines in the Site Rules and Guidelines forum (and elsewhere) -- hadn't considered there to be a lack of transparency in this: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13152

It's not ideal to me, but that's up to the site owner ([email protected]).

Originally posted by Reviews guidelines Reviews guidelines wrote:

Weighting of star ratings
All reviewers should note that the following values are given to star ratings when calculating averages, top 100 charts etc.:

Ratings without reviews (any review with less than 100 words, is considered to be a rating without a review) are given a value of 1.
Reviews (of more than 100 words) are given a value of 10, or ten times that of a rating without review.
Reviews by Prog Reviewers and Special Collaborators are given a value of 20, or twenty times that of a rating without a review.
These weightings are intended to encourage people to support their rating of an album with a considered review, and to recognise the ongoing contribution made by our Prog Reviewers and Special Collaborators.

We are of course always keen to see more members become Prog reviewers and Special Collaborators. For more information on this, see the FAQ's thread (link below).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 12:31
Thanks Logan, not ideal as you said, but as you said its the owner of the site decision.  I imagine the intent is to encourage collaboration and reviews.

But its a toughie in perhaps a case where review rating starts at 2 from what you posted, it would take what 40 or more normal ratings of 4+ to bring that album back up to becoming somewhere between 3 and 4 because of its weighting of 20 times normal 2 rating? From 1 bad review start.  or vice versa.

Sticking up for the poor artist...regards :)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 15:48
^ As per the site guidelines:
The weighted three star review from Special Collaborator (Bob McBeath/Easy Livin) is worth 20 unweighted reviews.

I don't know what those rating only reviews are as they are not published on the review page but I do know they must add to 31 i.e. weighted 60 + unweighted 31 divided by 29 reviews = 3.1379 (rounded up to 3.14)

The 9 rating only reviews @ 5 stars would result in an average score of 3.62
The 9 rating only reviews @ 4 stars would result in an average score of 3.31
The 9 rating only reviews @ 3 stars would result in an average score of 3.00
The 9 rating only reviews @ 2 stars would result in an average score of 2.69
The 9 rating only reviews @ 1 stars would result in an average score of 2.38

It should be borne in mind that the ability to rate without a written review was originally only intended to allow non-english speakers to contribute to the site. PA's raison d'etre is after all, published opinion so it strikes me as perfectly acceptable to weight demonstrable expertise in favour of written reviews rather than have the site function as a sports ladder. The best way to support the artist is to submit a favourable review encouraging visitors to give the album(s) a listen.



Edited by ExittheLemming - April 10 2021 at 15:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 16:36
^ Nicely put, all I would change is "It should be borne in mind.."  to  "Bear in mind.." .

Oh yes, the obsessive geekery is out in full tonight, my friend.





Edited by Atavachron - April 10 2021 at 16:36
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 17:11
I love you guys but its all a matter of interpretation right?

The math is simple 1 rated review of 2 Stars is valued at 40 out of 100.  You would need the next 40 ratings to be 40 consecutive 5 Stars = 200 which now makes it a total of 240 points out a maximum of 300 that can be achieved after 41 ratings to make that particular artist's album a 4.00 star.  And that is the power of the 1 reviewer!

Is that extra power really needed when the credit is the review itself posted on a page?

Not everyone feels they have the talent to write a good literate review that others might appreciate, and I highly respect the ones that are able to do this. But that does not diminish the listening ability of the ones that feel they can't contribute towards a review (be it language or writing skills), yet are willing to join the Forum and to participate in a way that they can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 18:10
^ I've never actually had sufficient cause to calculate this before so I hope my arithmetic is correct:Shocked

If 31 is the total of ratings only reviews (of which there are 9)
then 1 x 3 star weighted written review from S/C gives an average score 3.14
just one additional 5 star weighted written review from S/C or P/R would give an average score of 3.9
just two additional 5 star weighted written reviews from non S/C or non P/R would also give an average score of 3.9

S/C is Special Collaborator
P/R is Prog Reviewer

If you can participate in the forums then you are more than capable of submitting a 100 word written review. As long as it's not slanderous or libelous and approaches coherence (no-one is looking for highbrow literature), then I like to think we have a very relaxed and inclusive attitude to reviews submitted to PA.


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 10 2021 at 18:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2021 at 20:08
If you are a jerk just punching in 1 and 2 star ratings without a review, then you should get dinged for not at least expressing why you think the albums suck. It happens, and likewise the helter-skelter adding of 5 star ratings for the newest and bestest album from your favoritest band. There are many newer albums that are way overvalued, when time and consideration may temper that rating dramatically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2021 at 03:59
How in world did Steeleye Span's Dodgy b*****ds receive a 5 star rating? I believe that's the more pertinent question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2021 at 05:07
^ have to concur. What about a musical intelligence test before you can 'vote?'Evil Smile
I'm getting really tired of those sports ladder plankton dialing in hundreds of 1 and 5 star rating only reviews but who continue to lecture the real collaborators about how much they contribute to the site and how unfair PA's system is maaan. (rant overCensored)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2021 at 06:25
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ have to concur. What about a musical intelligence test before you can 'vote?'Evil Smile
I'm getting really tired of those sports ladder plankton dialing in hundreds of 1 and 5 star rating only reviews but who continue to lecture the real collaborators about how much they contribute to the site and how unfair PA's system is maaan. (rant overCensored)

Sorry but I don't think I have ever in any posts I have made lectured belittled reviewers or collaborators. That practice is actually throughout forum posts in reverse as in your comments shows above.  And your sports ladder comment seems weird as what you are saying is that other people who rate don't know anything about the album that they may own and your comments are gospel and as a result YOU MUST CONTROL the ladder.

Would it not be better if you just simply do this.

Reviewer rating: x.xx
Non Reviewer rating:  y.yy






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2021 at 08:19
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Would it not be better if you just simply do this.

Reviewer rating: x.xx
Non Reviewer rating:  y.yy



The weighting system has been explained to you in detail as has PA's preference for written reviews over rating only reviews. I do acknowledge that you don't agree with this policy which is of course entirely your prerogative.
I take the view that a rating only review does not contribute in any substantive way to the site's stated aim:
"to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource". That's just my opinion, not 'gospel' and I have no interest whatsoever in ratings or controlling any ladders. I do however like to share knowledge, insight and articulated opinion about why folks like/dislike the music included on PA. I don't get that from a rating only review which is precisely the point the Dark Elf expressed earlier in the thread.

Would it not be better if you actually did something about this e.g. contact the site owner or lobby the Admins to implement the changes you wish to see?


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 11 2021 at 09:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2021 at 09:37
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Would it not be better if you just simply do this.

Reviewer rating: x.xx
Non Reviewer rating:  y.yy


Would it not be better if you actually did something about this e.g. contact the site owner or lobby the Admins to implement the changes you wish to see?

Look I know all about websites and the amount of effort it takes to go backwards and change thousands of pages.

So realistically I am not asking for anything with regards to changes. My posts are about transparency.  So know whoever cares to read understands what their rating is worth if not a reviewer or collaborator, which is not a lot.

This discussion could have ended a few posts back except you keep adding stuff to it like Ladders and the need to control non reviewers.

If you want I can put like this, there is a shock factor around knowing that a rating is not worth anything and that there might be an existence of some kind of ladder and the need to control others.

That's it nothing more to discuss from my side, the responses and the defensiveness has made that pretty clear.
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