Removing member rating stars as punishment - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Points: 3830

Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:01

Logan wrote:

That's not my perspective at all.

Contact another admin by PM to try to make your case if you haven't already. I don't feel that I was abusive, yet you were very insulting towards me when I tried to clarify my action and express my concerns. And your thread was something of a trainwreck before I supposedly tried to derail it from my perspective. It was misplaced, and I provided the link that made the case. I often move threads, but I don't always take the time to explain why as I often lack the time.

I had even tried to offer some understanding with my first post when I responded to others by saying, "I read it as humorous though. I quite commonly joke around with a straight-face often employing absurdity and hyperbole. There are so many different ways that people interpret intent." I think I may have been too generous.

I did offer a formal warning due to your lack of discretion when discussing your perception of what goes on in the collab zone. I did not remove your Prog Reviewer status until I had consulted with the other admin.

Mine was general comment, though, about contacting any admin if people have concerns or wish to contest an action. If I wished to contest an action by an admin, then I would contact another admin.

I would rather you contact other admin about this and they can investigate and assess your grievances. That is better procedure and if it is politely and thoughtfully handled, it is more likely to lead to a positive outcome.

Since you feel comfortable replying to me, I will reply to you. It is imbalanced to suggest it any other way. That's one of the things I took issue with in your PM--you said harsh, arbitrary, punitive things, and told me I was not to respond. Now, in public, you're doing a softer version of same.

The issue is that my avant-garde prog music's credibility was established here on ProgArchives almost fifteen years ago, yet you suggest and enforce your uneducated judgment of it as "non-prog", apparently because of the (in)actions of the collab teams. It's not as if I screenshotted their damning Collab Zone messages, or named and shamed a single team member for their Collab Zone activity. I didn't mention any Collab Zone activity regarding any other artist's music--what exactly did I breach, security- or trust-wise?

You've never listened to my music. You take the false high ground while refusing to engage with the core issue I present--which is how I described you previously in this thread.

Logan wrote:

I did offer a formal warning due to your lack of discretion when discussing your perception of what goes on in the collab zone. I did not remove your Prog Reviewer status until I had consulted with the other admin (was concerned about your collab zone privileges -- I hope for a sense of discretion and that we can trust those people).

Note the edit you added: your faux-Brit insinuation attacks the discretion and trust of the one whose privileges you're 'concerned' about without a single example of an actual breach, yet you cannot even be trusted to answer a straightforward inquiry in a straightforward manner.

If another admin wishes to join the thread (the purpose of I Have A Question For You......? ), they are welcome, but accountability is not something you're exempt from. I'll note that I also reported a post or two in the other thread for attacks and derailing, but unless your response was the admin response, there was no admin response.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 12:11

suitkees

Forum Senior Member

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Location: France
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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:17

Man Overboard wrote:

suitkees wrote:

Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things...

I could say the same about you.

Really? Be explicit. Where did I misrepresent something? I really get the impression that you are a very obtuse person. I never talked about "prog descriptions", not here, not in that other thread. And again you try to accuse Logan of something that, at least for what is visible for all forum members, has never taken place.

Apparently, your music has been considered but rejected for inclusion on PA (after your first presentation in the "unsigned artists" section). You haven't been attacked at all, but just turned down for inclusion on PA; you turn it into a crusade.

In the other thread, and implicitly here again, you also claim respect because of your 14 years of membership on PA, but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn. For me it is not that much a question about "new music not being considered" but more about your abhorrent attitude.

But all this is not addressing the OP's post, I'm sorry about that.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:23

suitkees wrote:

Man Overboard wrote:

suitkees wrote:

Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things...

I could say the same about you.

Really? Be explicit. Where did I misrepresent something? I really get the impression that you are a very obtuse person. I never talked about "prog descriptions", not here, not in that other thread. And again you try to accuse Logan of something that, at least for what is visible for all forum members, has never taken place.

In the other thread, and implicitly here again, you also claim respect because of your 14 years of membership on PA, but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn. For me it is not that much a question about "new music not being considered" but more about your abhorrent attitude.

But all this is not addressing the OP's post, I'm sorry about that.

Here's an obvious one. I've been a PA member for 17 years, not 14. I've been a respected prog artist for 14 years. I'm not a commercially-oriented project, so I don't market. I guess it's my abhorrent attitude.

suitkees

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:26

suitkees wrote:

...but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn...

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Logan

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:28

^^ I'm not at all comfortable replying to you, but you are making allegations and misrepresenting my intent and approach, I asked you not to respond back to me and would rather you contact another admin because you were clearly attacking/ insulting me. It was nasty. I won't divulge as PMs are private messages. I was quite shocked in fact. If I felt like I could have polite and reasonable conversation with you without insult and missing the point, then I would have been happy to continue. I did check out some of your music before, but so what? I certainly didn't want to properly look into it considering your attitude. I was pointing out that it was rejected and the rules that I did not write state.

"Prog Music lounge

This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.
N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music."

There's plenty of music not in PA that I consider to be in the Progressive Rock universe. Different minds have different ideas of what constitutes Prog and make different associations.

I don't know why you mention the faux-Brit thing. I am not an American and do have British citizenship.

Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:29

suitkees wrote:

suitkees wrote:

...but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn...

If you don't listen to the music, how can you know?

Three ways to discover our faults:
ask a friend;
ask an enemy;
recognise a fault in others.

Logan wrote:

"Prog Music lounge
This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.
N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music."

Jesu Christo, this sounds like a commercial cabal for promotional purposes and no longer a place for prog music to be discussed or discovered. What's with the draconian stance? I never saw that in the rules--that attitude is exactly what I took and still take issue with. This forum and website, which many signed prog artists who are included in the Archives privately and publicly loathe for its cultural flaws, is not the ultimate arbiter of who or what is prog, no matter how much money circulates.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 12:34

Logan

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:41

^ Those rules have been up for many years. And if you never saw that, and missed reading through the link I provided, then it better explains that you misunderstood my response in your thread. I thought I had been clear enough.

See: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127222&PID=5929946#5929946

By the way, I think I tried to explain but you didn't understand, that I didn't see your topic in "Suggest New Bands" because it was in "Unsigned Bands" (a different forum). I had searched the Suggest New Bands forum.

Edited by Logan - September 29 2021 at 12:51

Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act

suitkees

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:45

This really makes me laugh. Apparently you are so much out of touch with reality that you can utter this kind of nonsense. I don't think there's that much money circulating here at PA, otherwise this site, database and the forums would be much more up to modern standards. It really seems to me that you should question your own attitude. But I sincerely hope you get banned because your bad-faith is just too shameful...

Edited by suitkees - September 29 2021 at 12:46

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Points: 3830

Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:49

suitkees wrote:

^^ LOL

You've never heard of a videogame studio being denied their bonus because the review average wasn't high enough? How about an InsideOut Music artist?

suitkees

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:58

^ No I didn't. And I don't see the connection with what has been said before, and definitely not with the OP.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:00

suitkees wrote:

^ No I didn't. And I don't see the connection with what has been said before, and definitely not with the OP.

Economics and logistics are a complex structural matter that, in creative industry, most heavily penalizes and affects artists of all stripes.

When a record company makes a mistake, the artist pays for it.
When a manager makes a mistake, the artist pays for it.
When the artist makes a mistake, the artist pays for it.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 13:01

suitkees

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:08

^ Then I guess it all started here for you:

Man Overboard wrote:

When the artist makes a mistake, the artist pays for it.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:10

suitkees wrote:

^ Then I guess it all started here for you:

"Maybe nothing is really true, and not even that." Multatuli Wink

Logan wrote:

^ Those rules have been up for many years. And if you never saw that, and missed reading through the link I provided, then it better explains that you misunderstood my response in your thread. I thought I had been clear enough.

See: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127222&PID=5929946#5929946

I still haven't seen those rules posted--it seems like an unnatural stance. I'm not actually seeking to be contentious, or start a conflict. I think you might be able to appreciate my perspective.

I'd posted a topic in Unsigned Bands well over a decade ago. It had magnificent response, and clearly classified my music well within the Archives' bounds, though it wasn't send to Suggest New Bands through formal process. I had posted a topic in Suggest New Bands last year. It was moved due to collab teams mishandling it. Not trying to pin fault on any individual here, it was a logistical error. I've produced three albums since last year's thread. They're unique, future-thinking prog records that tie in to a five-album prog concept arc, and have more research poured into them than, for example, a novel of historical fiction. Forgive me for not knowing that Prog Music Lounge was actually Discuss Our Site Archives' Roster. It isn't clear.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 13:22

TCat

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:24

Going back the the original topic of the thread, it seems there was a mistake on the part of the O.P. about his claim about having a star removed. There is no record of him having more than 3 stars. No stars were removed.

Edited by TCat - September 29 2021 at 13:28

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:26

TCat wrote:

Going back the the original topic of the thread, it seems there was a mistake on the part of the O.P. about his claim about having a star removed. There is no record of him having more than 3 stars. No stars were removed.

I never got a clear answer on why my star was removed, or how I could've prevented it from being removed. OP may or may not have had a 4th star.

Going back to my point, TCat, would you consider this short sample of a longer, non-album track to not be prog? I've got a large body of work, so it can be daunting to approach, but this is less than three minutes of music. Big smile

I think you'll be surprised. If you enjoy it, a good starter album is Four Corners, marking the center.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 13:38

Tapfret

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:39

Man Overboard wrote:

Originally posted by <st1:city w:st=on><st1:place w:st=on>Logan</st1:place></st1:city>

Logan wrote:

"Prog Music lounge

This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.
N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music."

So you never saw that in the rules? You mean the rule that he LITERALLY COPIED AND PASTED INTO HIS REPLY FROM THE FORUM RULES AND GUIDELINES WRITTEN 16 YEARS AGO?

Site administrators do not operate in a vacuum. The issues brought forth here and in the previous thread you decided to throw a tantrum in were not somehow hidden from our view. Quite frankly, you decided to go to war with the most lenient and non-punitive member of our team. We have collectively found his actions to be more than fair where you are concerned. Assessing the events leading up to this point, I am afraid you will find no quarter elsewhere (there is some faux-Brit for you).

Man Overboard wrote:

The issue is that my avant-garde prog music's credibility was established here on ProgArchives almost fifteen years ago, yet you suggest and enforce your uneducated judgment of it as "non-prog", apparently because of the (in)actions of the collab teams.

Credibility is not a throne you get to sit on indefinitely, free from further review. Your music was evaluated over a year ago by the eclectic team, voted on and moved to the avant-garde team where it was rejected. What it was that you somehow interpreted as "(inaction) of the collab teams" is a real head scratcher. You had the opportunity with new music to re-submit through the proper channels. Instead you chose the misguided route of posting inappropriately in the primary Prog Music Lounge. I will refrain from laying a qualitative analysis on your motives, but at the very least it demonstrated a complete disregard for the site rules and guidelines, an understanding of which should be the bare minimum of requirements to maintain collaborator status.

Your actions are found to be wanting. Repeated insults to administrators and site volunteers will not be tolerated. Expect a PM from me.

Tapfret

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:50

Confirmed. 4-star status is limited to collaborators and prog reviewers. I went as far as a search of user posts and there is zero collaborator zone activity.

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:16

Again...wow. That's a lot of conversation. I'll have to go back and see what I missed over the last few hours.

To answer the questions...No, I don't believe I was ever a collab or prog reviewer. That's not to say I haven't written reviews, but I think the title has a very specific protocol.

I want to be clear here though, I'm not 100% sure that I DID have 4 stars. My Swiss cheese skull foam just seems to think I had. Honestly I don't pay much attention to such things and I can't see where it would affect my experience here unless it limited my ability to participate in some way.

So to any admins reading this, No Worry. It was way more of a curiosity than a concern.

And I'm not looking to re-litigate the whole copyright thing.

Please...by all means, continue on.

Thank you for supporting independently produced music

Logan

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:26

Could be worse, misremembering that you had four stars is not as delusional as thinking you used to control four star systems as a multistellar warlord.

Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act

someone_else View Drop Down

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Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:47

I cannot remember a time when the OP had more than three stars. I can remember a few cases in which a Collab or a Prog Reviewer lost a star, sometimes for a few days, in a single case for some 10 years, and some for good. One or more were thrown overboard afterwards.

On the other hand, back in the day when there was more spam to fight, I remember an admin who was disguised as a Forum Senior Member for a while, but he still must have had access to some ninja tools to serve Admin's sake. Anyway, this Forum Senior Member had the ability to remove spam and evict spammers.

Edited by someone_else - September 29 2021 at 15:50