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Subwoofer ?

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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 14:46
I've got walls, floors and furniture. LOL

But seriously, as a former sound engineer myself I guess you might expect that I would go to the n'th degree to tune my listening space. Only here's the thing, I don't have the budget to even come close to it. I probably spend 0.001% of my life actually sitting and listening to music. Most often it is relegated to background sound as I work. Lastly, I don't have the RTA required to make any room treatment truly useful. I came to the realization a long time ago that my personal listening space was never going to come close to my time in the studio.
I think it was reading "Perfecting Sound Forever" by Greg Milner that brought me to that conclusion. It's really just chasing the end of the universe and I have so much more to do with my life.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 14:50
True. The only engineers that I know who have decent listening rooms and equipment are all retired!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 14:53
^ Yes. Exactly.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 16:42
Did not know you are a sound engineer, JD. Tell me more.
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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 17:13
Are? Not really anymore. As in not a job function. Last album I did was BUSKER's Northern Fantasies.



These days my music involvement is in the form of volunteer work as the Main Stage manager at the Orangeville Blues and Jazz Festival.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 10:19
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Aren't the side firing Subs being blocked by the SVS's since they face out and are on the lower portion of the towers?
No, the side firing woofers are mounted almost mid cabinet, no blockage at all.

Rega RX5 Loudspeaker Photo #2861022 - Canuck Audio Mart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 10:47
Sticking with the OPs post which is about 2-channel setup, not a HT setup. With HT a sub is merely about the LFE channel and bringing out all the booms, bangs and explosions so you rattle the walls. There is a HUGE difference in this and what a sub SHOULD be doing for a 2-channel rig set for music only. If you can hear a sub in a 2-channel set up then you have the sub setup wrong, period. 
The sub(s) should blend with the main speakers, it should simply augment the low end of what your mains cannot do. Very very few main speakers today are built full range, meaning go to 20Hz, most roll off around 30Hz to as high as 50Hz (for small bookshelf models), so you are not experiencing the full range of the music without use of subs.
Sub setup is critical to achieving a great blend, and absolutely you can hear and feel the difference with subs on, sure I have plenty of music that is very difficult to tell any difference but when the music calls for it the subs make it so much more engaging, simply because you are hearing the full range of music, and nothing can correct a badly mixed recording.

Room treatments can help, but honestly most (90%) of pictures I see of peoples music rooms trying to use room treatments is not realistic. We all have furniture, windows, door ways, halls, tables, rugs, carpet, hard wood flooring, curtains, hanging pictures, you name it.....that you would never be able to effectively diffuse and create the reflections properly to make it sound better let alone look good for your spousal unit's approval LOL. If you don't have the gear to accurately reproduce music that has sub 30Hz frequency, no room treatment will make that come out, it starts with the gear first.

I've measured my main speakers to about 32Hz, but with my subs I have measured to around 18Hz, that's extreme though. What I get is the sustain of low notes now, a standup bass pluck can now play longer since I hear/feel the whole sustain, rather than it getting cut off at say 40Hz. And when the music has it, my room will pressurize nicely and you feel the music as well hear it......It's pretty awesome.


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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 11:45
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Aren't the side firing Subs being blocked by the SVS's since they face out and are on the lower portion of the towers?
No, the side firing woofers are mounted almost mid cabinet, no blockage at all.

[Photo Removed For Space]
Ah, got it. Nice.
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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 11:51
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

[EDIT]
I've measured my main speakers to about 32Hz, but with my subs I have measured to around 18Hz, that's extreme though. What I get is the sustain of low notes now, a standup bass pluck can now play longer since I hear/feel the whole sustain, rather than it getting cut off at say 40Hz. And when the music has it, my room will pressurize nicely and you feel the music as well hear it......It's pretty awesome.

How? RTA, oscilloscope, at what amplitude?


Edited by JD - February 28 2022 at 11:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 12:05
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

[EDIT]
I've measured my main speakers to about 32Hz, but with my subs I have measured to around 18Hz, that's extreme though. What I get is the sustain of low notes now, a standup bass pluck can now play longer since I hear/feel the whole sustain, rather than it getting cut off at say 40Hz. And when the music has it, my room will pressurize nicely and you feel the music as well hear it......It's pretty awesome.

How? RTA, oscilloscope, at what amplitude?

I've used a program I have called TrueRTA. I know the mic I have is probably not calibrated well and I should use an interface between mic and laptop. But I have no HT so getting that stuff does not make sense for me. I've used both a static test tone but normally just use a sweep/chirp test tone set at 10Hz - 22KHz, the mic is set at about 1m from speakers. Anything over 78-80dB gets to be too loud for me on the chirps. When I setup my subs I start at 75dB for the tone on my mains, when done I end up around 79dB with all speakers playing the tone I'm setting crossover for.

I already have a very mild case of tinnitus, I don't need to make it worse!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 12:50
Interesting.
My tinnitus has been pretty prevalent for the last few years. My wife loves to read and prefers silence, which I guess I understand. But that only makes the tinnitus more distracting. That's why I always like to have something playing above the tinnitus amplitude.  Think of it as JDolby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:25
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Interesting.
My tinnitus has been pretty prevalent for the last few years. My wife loves to read and prefers silence, which I guess I understand. But that only makes the tinnitus more distracting. That's why I always like to have something playing above the tinnitus amplitude.  Think of it as JDolby.

I'm a classic case of loud concerts from back in the late 70s to now, as a teen never wearing ear protection at concerts and always fighting to get up front. Listening to loud music in the car, mainly cassette tapes and of course headphones at home at night......About 15yrs ago really noticed it coming on and I now wear ear protection at concerts as well when mowing my lawn or any loud machines. I listen with noise cancelling HP on planes but very low volume.
Sitting in front of the system at home it's rare I get above 90dB....where I do I buy the JDolby program!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:34
Maybe it's that subwoofer causing that tinnitus. LOL

Anyway, I notice the OP has not responded to any comments. Soooo.....


Edited by Grumpyprogfan - February 28 2022 at 14:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 15:17
Perhaps he went deaf.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 15:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps he went deaf.
Guess he needs treatment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 15:35
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps he went deaf.
Guess he needs treatment. 
Define treatment.
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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 15:36
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Maybe it's that subwoofer causing that tinnitusLOL

Anyway, I notice the OP has not responded to any comments. Soooo.....
No, it causes sterility. The ELF's really do a number on the 'ol tadpoles I hear. Wink


Edited by JD - February 28 2022 at 15:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 15:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps he went deaf.

Whatcha say?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Ness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2022 at 08:32
Sorry, following the news over this horrible Ukraine thing kept me away from PA for a few days but I returned today and read through the whole discussion.
Thank you guys, contributions much appreciated !

I run my music from the computer with Foobar 2000 and have an Advance Acoustic pre- and power amps

feeding Sonus Faber Grand Pianos

which are really superb but leave me sometimes longing for a more intense and exciting audio atmosphere when I'm in just that kind of mood that requires it.

Would the sub deliver that little extra juice ? From your comments it seems like it will, I'll report later my experience, cheers.



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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2022 at 09:01
Originally posted by Dark Ness Dark Ness wrote:

Sorry, following the news over this horrible Ukraine thing kept me away from PA for a few days but I returned today and read through the whole discussion.
Thank you guys, contributions much appreciated !

I run my music from the computer with Foobar 2000 and have an Advance Acoustic pre- and power amps

feeding Sonus Faber Grand Pianos

which are really superb but leave me sometimes longing for a more intense and exciting audio atmosphere when I'm in just that kind of mood that requires it.

Would the sub deliver that little extra juice ? From your comments it seems like it will, I'll report later my experience, cheers.

The picture looks like the Grand Piano Domus, the Grand Piano don't have that many drivers. Regardless the Domus is 30Hz and the other is 35Hz for low end, which is very good on it's own.
So that being said you need a sub that will extend well below 30Hz to make it effective. That's why I chose SVS subs (sealed) as my model is rated down to 19Hz.
If your using Foobar to play lossy files then your not going to gain anything......What happens in these cases is users will simply increase the sub gain and "think" they are hearing low end bass when all they are doing is increasing gain around 150-200Hz and it sounds really bad with just a bunch of boominess.
You should never hear the sub with your mains.....
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