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Is there a specific term for this type of vocals?
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graysnk2 View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 06 2023 at 23:56
Hey all,

There's this certain type of vocals in certain progressive songs that I really like, but have trouble concisely putting into words, and can best be explained with examples. Wondering if there is a term for this style or at least some more specific adjectives to describe it than I can think of!

National Health - Brujo ~2:40
Throughout Hatfield and the North's Debut (ex Son of Theres No Place Like Homerton, ~5:05)
A Formal Horse's vocals as well I guess.

The angelic, high to low to high notes, usually female, almost chanting, almost operatic... I lack the musical knowledge to describe it. Anyone know if this is a 'thing'? Or can describe what is happening musically/melodically/harmonically that these examples have in common? Any song recs for me based on these?



Edited by graysnk2 - April 07 2023 at 00:01
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chopper View Drop Down
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Points: 19952 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 04:34
Maybe I'm not musically qualified enough but I don't see that there would be a particular term for this. The Zappa clip sounds like it might have another voice that's speeded up. The National Health one sounds pretty high but isn't it just a wordless female vocal?
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Hi,

Welcome to the board btw.

My only comment would be why should we think that all "singing" has to be the same way. In some cases, it is more about the "acting" than it is the actual singing ... or as MEATLOAF used to say ... "I'm an actor that happens to sing ... have a problem with that?"

I would rather have all those different bits and pieces (AD2) was huge on that with vocals all over the place, than something like you hear on the cheap radio waves these days, when you got some folks "singing", and all that means is that they can hit the notes but guess what ... there is nothing behind it whatsoever! And to me that's not singing at all!

You either live or die and cry with the words or forget it, even if it is about a cake in McArthur's park!
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Points: 12410 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 06:17
I don't think there's a specific term for this type of singing, and have no clue what to call it, if I'm to pick a name for it. I guess is an artistic way of expressing, to provide a particular experience.
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I doubt there is a real term for what you're presenting here as some are solo voices and others multiple voices. And yes, the FZ vocal parts are sped up just like Gregory's voice for effect.  The closest term that I would use is 'choral' vocals as they are melodic and not dissonant and cover a range of scale (not monotonic).
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

You either live or die and cry with the words or forget it, even if it is about a cake in McArthur's park!

What kind of cake? 
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One that was left out in the rain !
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

You either live or die and cry with the words or forget it, even if it is about a cake in McArthur's park!

What kind of cake? 

Hi,

The sad and far out cake in my book for some folks.
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I think the term you're looking for is falsetto. Kerry Minnear-sung songs on Gentle Giant albums also make wonderful use of it.
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Points: 7956 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 14:14
OP: I know of no particular name for this technique but I, too, LOVE it! Singers like Hayley McDonnell (A FORMAL HORSE) are like sirens to me. Others of the ilk:
Moorea Dickason of MOETAR and HIVE
Melody Ferris of INNER EAR BRIGADE
All of the lead vocalists of the band THINKING PLAGUE (Elaine Di Falco, Deborah Perry, Sharon Bradford, Susanne Lewis)
Chrissie Loftus of iNFiNiEN
Suz Johanson of PINGVINORKESTERN
Cheyenne Mize of UT GRET's Ancestor's Tale (2014)
And a whole slew of cabaretic singers like KATE BUSH, NINA HAGEN, SHEN TEH (Lara Reidel Olson), JANE SIBERRY, LENA LOVITCH.

Pedro is right (when quoting MeatLoaf): there's something about acting (and straying outside of traditional Western melodic forms and key signatures.) Operatic training is usually a part of the singer's background, as well.
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Points: 583 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boojieboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 16:04
Might be "operatic". Like they do in operas.
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Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

You either live or die and cry with the words or forget it, even if it is about a cake in McArthur's park!

What kind of cake? 

Hi,

The sad and far out cake in my book for some folks.


Hi,

Hey ... c'mon ... Richard Harris did a massive job singing it! And no one ever said he couldn't act, either! Ask the folks that saw him in LA doing Camelot!
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 16:38
Hey folks, get ce-REAL for a change! Cake is... sad.
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Points: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote graysnk2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2023 at 20:03
Good comments here, thank you everyone. Not a forum frequenter but pleased to find a nice discussion one day after posting.

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

I think the term you're looking for is falsetto. Kerry Minnear-sung songs on Gentle Giant albums also make wonderful use of it.

Ah yes, falsetto. Yeah I suppose Kerry's GG vocals are of that same flavor. 

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

OP: I know of no particular name for this technique but I, too, LOVE it! Singers like Hayley McDonnell (A FORMAL HORSE) are like sirens to me. Others of the ilk:
Moorea Dickason of MOETAR and HIVE
...

Oh yea, Moetar is a great example too. I will check those others out! Thanks.
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Considering these are female vocals, falsetto is not the right term, as it refers to the head voice in males. 
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Points: 6764 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2023 at 00:45
Just vocal arranging.  The composition is more unique than the vocals.  

Prog artists do a lot of tricks with vocal composition....look at Genesis, using young children in "Supper's Ready"...

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Points: 10062 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2023 at 01:41
I don't think the singing in that Zappa-piece has much in common with the two Canterbury-examples. The two latter ones are "typical" jazz-vocals, often wordless, using the voice as an instrument over just "singing the song". You'll find a similar approach "everywhere" in 1970's jazzfusion with vocals. Robert Wyatt does it all the time, Richard Sinclair, Pascale Son (of the wonderful band Cos), Mirelle Dalbray of Cortex, some of Return to Forever with Flora Purim....
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Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Hey folks, get ce-REAL for a change! Cake is... sad.

...


HI,

Not very original my friend ... I've used that expression from the very first day I got here! Sadly, I'm not sure you even know how to use it right! And no a song about the cake out in the rain is not out of line here, other than folks thinking that it is not exactly a "rock song" by our STANDARDS ... and Jimmy Webb was not exactly an idiot when it came to putting music together. He did a lot of things, fun and otherwise! But getting Richard Harris to do it seriously is an awesome achievement! And quoting a rag ... "Up, Up and Away", "By the Time I Get to Phoenix", "MacArthur Park", "Wichita Lineman", "Worst That Could Happen", "Galveston" and "All I Know".[1] And worked with Glen Campbell, Michael Feinstein, Linda Ronstadt, the 5th Dimension, the Supremes, Art Garfunkel and Richard Harris.[2]
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Points: 16191 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2023 at 06:22
Hi,

The scary part for me discussing this stuff as valuable, is that it has a tendency to leave behind some folks that were excellent, and became rather well known ... everyone laughed and jokes about Joe Cocker, until one night he made everyone cry on TV and everyone realized that he had a special voice. The same for Roger Chapman, that could do "Gypsy Moon" amidst all the hard edged material he did with STREETWALKERS, and even so so previously with FAMILY.

Likewise, someone like Peter Hammill also kinda fits here, since it is almost difficult to call it "singing" instead of (this is just Peter Hammill!) since he moves around so much, and in the early days, he screamed a lot more than he does now at his advancing years. I remember one stooge making a comment about "The Silent Corner and Empty Stage" ... and saying that it was not singing ... it was just crap. I seriously doubted the guy even bothered listening to the album which is fabulous and one of the most "personal" albums around.

It's an expression, and the more you like it, the more music you will appreciate. There is no such thing as really bad ... well .. Tiny Tim doesn't count, but it is one of Archi's favorites I bet!


Edited by moshkito - April 08 2023 at 06:24
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Tiny Tim doesn't count, but it is one of Archi's favorites I bet!
Big fan of Tiny Tim here.

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