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bardberic View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 09 2023 at 12:59
I originally submitted this for prog-related, but at Logan's urging per site guidelines, I have decided to retry Avatar for Experimental/Post Metal. Please check out the albums Hail the Apocalypse, Feathers and Flesh, and Avatar Country (most notably the second of this list) for the most relevant releases to the Progarchives. If you feel they are not eligible for Exp/Post Metal please consider Prog-related. Everything below this I typed out about a week ago, for the (inexistant) prog-related team, but there are some good arguments here for Exp/Post Metal, too.

Avatar is a metal band from Sweden. While they don't strictly play progressive music, they have played enough prog/prog-related music during their career that their influence on and from prog metal in general cannot be ignored (in a similar way to Queen and Muse). Regardless, They have consistently, especially in their more recent years, played more experimental/avant-garde related music (although not prog in a traditional sense per se) to be evaluated strictly on these elements alone (in a similar way to Boris in how both their inclusion and intentional exclusion from the site could be viewed either way as contentious). So while upon first listen, the prog may not jump out at you, it is there, and manifests in their own unique way. Just the sheer diversity of their albums alone differentiate them from the more traditional melodeath/alt metal bands, such that no song sounds the same - in a similar way to Queen from Sheer Heart Attack through Jazz (excluding news of the World ofc). Therefore, as a second choice, I'd say Post/Experimental Metal could also be considered.

Specifically, their albums Feathers and Flesh and Avatar Country, from 2016 and 2018, respectively, (especially Feathers and Flesh) are their most prog-related albums, and the further away from those two albums you go, the less prog the music is. If I were on a committee here, I'd accept them onto the site strictly for those two albums, as their "progressiveness" cannot be ignored, and their avant-garde metal elements from 2012 through 2023 only help their case. I'd skip over their first three albums, as they are not really prog enough for consideration. From Black Waltz (2012) until Dance Devil Dance (2023) is where the avant-garde is played, and again Feathers and Flesh and Avatar Country (right in the middle of this period) is where the prog can be heard, in a less straightforward way, again like Queen and Muse. If you Google the band, you'll find some people have called them "progressive" in the past, and their Wikipedia article lists progressive metal as one of their genres in the infobox, and cites in their "musical influence" section a music journalist's description of them as such.

Bio:

Avatar is a metal band from Gothenburg, Sweden, formed in 2001, although they prefer the term "circus freak show." Currently consisting of vocalist Johannes Eckerström, lead guitarist Jonas "the King" Jarlby, rhythm guitarist Tim Öhrström, bassist Henrik Sandelin, and drummer John Alfredson, the band startedout as a straightforward Gothenburg scene melodic death metal band. Not really achieving commercial success by 2009, they almost disbanded out of frustration with their lack of identity. They decided to release one more album in 2012, which would be called Black Waltz, and featured a more avant-garde sound where the band discovered what "their" sound is, and how their music "looks," as Eckerström explains (calling it the band's "rebirth"). At this point, they also began introducing elements from other music genres such as alternative rock/metal and industrial music. This was their first album to feature Eckerström in his clown makeup, which would be iconic for the band in their subsequent releases. This album did manage to achieve commercial success and Avatar decided to produce more albums.

Their next album, "Hail the Apocalypse," which was released in 2014, is their most famous and best selling album, and in which the avant-garde metal elements have more emphasis placed. The songs from this album have become live staples. In 2016, they released "Feathers and Flesh," which, as a concept album about an owl who wages war against the world, took a more progressive approach. This was followed up in 2018 by Avatar Country, another concept album in which their guitarist the ruler of the Avatar Country kingdom. In 2020, they released "Hunter Gatherer," an album they deemed as being "totally devoid of humor," and tackling more serious subject matter to contrast the silliness of their previous two albums. In 2023, they released "Dance Devil Dance," taking a more alternative metal sound.

Avatar is notorious for their high energy and fun live concerts. In 2019, they released their first live album "The King Live in Paris." During each album phase, the band changes up their appearance, such as their wardrobe.

I wrote all of this from the top of my head. There is a ton of information online about the band if you want to add anything to the bio. I did, however, take the quotes from Johanness Eckstrom from here: https://www.wearethepit.com/2020/08/every-avatar-album-ranked-worst-to-best-by-frontman-johannes-eckerstrom/

Bandcamp (I have it set on Feathers and Flesh, since that's the most important album - as well as Avatar Country)


Because of the large discography of this band, and the challenging nature of this assessment, I've decided to embed a few of their more progressive tracks here:




Edited by bardberic - May 20 2023 at 02:38
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Hey what's the status on this? Is anyone going to look at it?

Edited by bardberic - May 17 2023 at 13:03
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I don't know if you've read this from Site Policies and Guidelines - Artists and Albums: Prog Related Submissions Policy (CLICK HERE)

Quote Prog Related submissions operate under a different process to normal suggestions and submissions. The Admin team does not trawl the forum looking for suggestions in random threads - suggestions made in this way will be ignored. Only suggestions made by a Special Collaborator directly to an Admin team member (via PM only) will be accepted (see below).

While there is a clear set of definitions for what the ProgArchives will consider for inclusion under this category, not all eligible bands and artists will be accepted for addition.

Prog Related is not a category for "hard to place artists" ~ if it is generally accepted that an Artist has produced a Progressive Rock or Progressive Metal album but there is uncertainty to which Prog subgenre they should be placed then the respective Genre Teams must decide which subgenre is the best fit for the Artist rather than the exact fit. These Artists will not normally be accepted for Prog Related unless a very good case can be made for them.

Side projects and solo albums by members of Bands listed in the ProgressiveArchives will only be accepted for Prog Related if a) they cannot be placed in an wholely Prog subgenre and b) the music has some relationship to Progressive Rock/Metal.
Prog Related category is under the control of the Admin Team. The Admin team only evaluates artists on their suitability for the category and the site, they do not add artists nor do they decide whether an artist is "Prog" or not.
Any member can suggest a band for inclusion in the Prog Related category:
Suggestions should be made in the Suggest New Bands and Artists lounge as normal.
This suggestion does not mean that the artist will be proposed or added, but opens up a means of debate and discussion on the suitability of the addition.
If necessary this debate will continue in the Collaborator zone in the designated Proto-Prog & Prog-Related suggestions/additions thread.
Once the artist being suggested has been discussed and found suitable for possible addition to the site the artist can then be formally proposed to the Admin team for evaluation.
It is assumed that any proposed band has already been discussed and found to be "Prog Related" at this stage.
Only Special Collaborators can propose an artist for evaluation by the Admin Team.
It would be useful if the proposing SC made a short case for the Artist's inclusion into the category - just pointing to the discussion thread may not be enough.
The sponsoring Special Collaborator must undertake to add the artist if the proposal is successful.
Proposals for Prog Related are by direct PM to a member of the Admin team only.


It's not easy to get into Prog Related, and it's been made difficult partially to limit the numbers that are even considered and considerable for there. It's a pretty exclusive category. Aside from the general expectation that an SC proposes it to us, not only should the music have progressive qualities (or sound Proggy -- how I love that word) but also other relations to Prog should be determined, like personnel in the project being in Prog bands, and also that it has been determined that the band not only was impacted by Prog but also was impactful on Prog (on other bands in Prog, on Prog subgenres...).

It often is every hard, especially with more modern ones, to present the case that the music has impacted Prog significantly. the category is intended for exceptional cases.

Here is the category description from the subgenre page (I expect you might well have read this already).

Quote No musical genre exists in a vacuum. Not all of the bands that have been a part of the history and development of progressive rock are necessarily progressive rock bands themselves. This is why progarchives has included a genre called prog-related, so we could include all the bands that complete the history of progressive rock, whether or not they were considered full-fledged progressive rock bands themselves.

There are many criteria that the prog-related evaluation team considers when deciding which bands are considered prog-related. Very few bands will meet all of this criteria, but this list will give an idea as to some of the things that help evaluate whether an artists is prog-related or not.

1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers.

2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands.

3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre.

4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix.

5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves.

6) Influenced by progressive rock - From the late 60s till about 1976 the progressive tendency was in full effect in almost all genres of music. Once again, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century a melting pot of prog-metal, math-rock, progressive electronics and post-rock influences have once again made a progressive tendency in rock music almost more a norm than a difference. Yet in other periods of musical history receiving influence from progressive rock could really set a band apart and make them worthy of our prog-related category.
Being influenced by progressive rock is hardly the only factor we look at, and in some periods of musical history it is almost meaningless, but still, it is almost a given that most of the artists listed in prog-related were influenced by the development of progressive rock.

7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture.
A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so.
- Easy Money


Usually it is best to start with a Prog genre if it is possibly considered feasible. You mention Post/Experimental Metal, and if I were you and you seriously consider that to be a possibility, then I would change the title to that. That way a Prog team can evaluate it, and if they find that there is good case for Prog Related when taking various criteria into consideration, then they can present arguments to the Admin team (we manage Proto-Prog and Prog Related) for why they think it would be a worthwhile and sensible addition.

But yeah, we made the bar high for prog Related -- some would say not high enough, and in this site's early days, the bar was practically non-existent. One can't expect consistency.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I don't know if you've read this from Site Policies and Guidelines - Artists and Albums: Prog Related Submissions Policy (CLICK HERE)


No I haven't - honestly this should be made more accessible - I'd suggest putting it in the "suggestions" forum or the prog-related description page directly. I did spend quite some considerable time typing this out, with my persuasions directed towards the prog-related analyzers - that was time wasted, unbeknownst to me (I don't think most users are going to find themselves reading this page, without being directed to it).

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

It's not easy to get into Prog Related, and it's been made difficult partially to limit the numbers that are even considered and considerable for there. It's a pretty exclusive category. Aside from the general expectation that an SC proposes it to us, not only should the music have progressive qualities (or sound Proggy -- how I love that word) but also other relations to Prog should be determined, like personnel in the project being in Prog bands, and also that it has been determined that the band not only was impacted by Prog but also was impactful on Prog (on other bands in Prog, on Prog subgenres...).

It often is every hard, especially with more modern ones, to present the case that the music has impacted Prog significantly. the category is intended for exceptional cases.

Here is the category description from the subgenre page (I expect you might well have read this already).

Yes I had read that, before submitting this. Frankly, it isn't quite clear what exactly is the purpose of this category, to be completely honest, at least in my opinion - there's some contradictory information here, but whatever. It doesn't explicitly say that users shouldn't suggest an artist directly to the queue for prog related, but the vibe it gives off is that it is quite difficult for them to get in due to how ambiguous the criteria seem (hence why the above post I mentioned should be stickied either on the prog related description or the suggestions forum). In my opinion, the way this category is managed seems quite pretentious, but I understand the rationale, I suppose.

The problem with this band is that they have the same dilemma as Queen in that they either play prog or they don't, and they do, it's more influenced than it is influential - if that makes sense - what I mean is that, as I mentioned in the submission, the music they play is not straightforward prog, and I'm almost certain they will be denied from Experimental/Post Metal since they're inclusion is really only contingent on the two albums I mentioned, out of eight total, so it's a quarter of their discography that deserves to be in the archives, but not so much the remaining three quarters - what is usually done in these types of cases?

The main problem is that this artist is not influential to the prog genre - they lack the popularity to be so. There are no "Avatar" worship bands, like there are for Queen (Muse for example comes to mind). These guys play their own brand of metal that really has yet (and probably never will be) emulated, this brand may or may not be unique enough for them to be called prog (or rather not, contentiously).

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Usually it is best to start with a Prog genre if it is possibly considered feasible. You mention Post/Experimental Metal, and if I were you and you seriously consider that to be a possibility, then I would change the title to that. That way a Prog team can evaluate it, and if they find that there is good case for Prog Related when taking various criteria into consideration, then they can present arguments to the Admin team (we manage Proto-Prog and Prog Related) for why they think it would be a worthwhile and sensible addition.

But yeah, we made the bar high for prog Related -- some would say not high enough, and in this site's early days, the bar was practically non-existent. One can't expect consistency.

I certainly don't think this bar isn't high enough - but inconsistent, for sure we can agree on lmao (Nightwish is here, but not Nevermore?). Nevertheless, I'm not sure about the Exp/Post Metal, only because it's not exclusive to their sound, with it being a smaller piece of the puzzle that makes up their overall sound (and the reason they should be considered for this site). If they debuted with Feathers and Flesh, or even Hail the Apocalypse, and this style continued throughout their backlog, then they're 100% a match for this category. But if this is the expectation to continue this submission, then so be it. I'm not rewriting my arguments for their addition to the Experimental/Post Metal team only because I know at this point which bands they tend to favor for addition here, and which they don't and this doesn't seem like their fancy, so that's probably just wasted time. But maybe they'll surprise me with this one (and I hope they do). But it doesn't seem this band is even eligible for prog-related, but a chance at Exp/Post Metal, it seems they potentially have - I already typed this out, why not try it?

There is one submission I have coming up in June for Avenged Sevenfold (check out their submission made in 2018 - I have recently posted a few comments and kept the submission up-to-date with their upcoming album). This is a band I DO think would qualify for prog related, even after now reading the site guidelines you posted, but they really, really don't belong in Progressive Metal, due to some... erm less-than progressive albums (looking at you Hail to the King! this is the album that prevented them from being added to the Encyclopedia Metallum, and may have killed their chances here, too), but for the most part their sound has almost always had progressive elements in them, and their most recent album is a complete progressive metal album and their upcoming album is almost universally expected to be in the avant-garde progressive metal realm, and if it is, it seems based on the suggestion I mentioned above, the users on this site in general seem to have an open, if not skeptical mind regarding the band's addition here. Unlike Avatar, Avenged Sevenfold HAS been influential to prog metal and there are "worship" bands for them, if you will. It also helps that they've collaborated with Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater on their album The Stage, and his songwriting is definitely noticeable on this album (especially on the song Save Me). They seem like an obvious inclusion in prog related - do you still want me to start with progressive metal for them?

It may actually make sense to start with Experimental/Post Metal with Avenged Sevenfold as well, considering this is what we're most likely dealing with on their upcoming album (although this is just technically speculation at this point - but really it isn't)
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please respond so I know how to move forward with both this submission and the one for Avenged Sevenfold, in the future, too.
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That notice on PR and PP should be edited and added to the Prog Submissions thread (also might save the time I have spend trying to explain it again and again to people). There are some other changes for submissions that I want and might suggest at some time. Anyway...

I think you should change this thread's title to suggest your metal category of choice and remove the Prog Related. It is better commonly for music to go through a Prog category first and that way the team will be alerted (more likely to check this topic). In some cases the team will then present it to admin for Prog Related consideration.

For Avenged Sevenfold, when the time comes I think you should revive this topic https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=116188 with the details, your thoughts and links to hear the new album. People from the Prog Metal team were already aware of it from reading the thread. If they then consider it to be a good move to PR, they can contact us with the details. So just continue with that thread and let's see where it goes. It is usually better to revive existing topics rather than create new ones (I have unlocked some old Suggest New bands topics for people when new material became available).


Edited by Logan - May 20 2023 at 02:27
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Okay will do!
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The two big metal sites metalstorm and metal-archives don't have any avant-garde or progressive tags. Neither does PA sister site metalmusicarchives. Confused

So if the PM team does not think they are a fit, should we discuss if they should go under prog-related? 
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The metal archives are corrupt as hell - their complete and total elitism and arrogance is actually what led me to joining the progarchives in the first place, in particular regarding this band - there have been dozens of complaints by numerous users about Avatar being listed under metalcore - they actually originally had the band under Nu Metal, but after six-ish years of user reports, the site finally gave in and relisted them under their current tag. There have been a few dozen other reports since then, but now the site admins are just deleting the reports from the history so they don't eventually have to give in this time. I exposed them for this, and they banned me.

The most common recommendation they received for the genre tag, based off of my recollection was something along the lines of "Melodic Death Metal/Avant-Garde Groove/Alternative Metal." But since they've been deleted from the report history, I can't really show that now.

And by metal archives, just so we're clear, I mean the Encyclopedia Metallum, NOT the metalmusicarchvies, which some people mix up.


Edited by bardberic - May 20 2023 at 03:51
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Nevertheless, the Wikipedia article calls them progressive metal, and in the media, they are frequently referred to as avant-garde metal, too. Edit: The Wikipedia article also calls their albums Hail the Apocalypse progressive metal (in fact it's the ONLY sourced genre in the infobox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_the_Apocalypse), and Feathers and Flesh is listed as avant-garde metal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathers_%26_Flesh).

There really is no consensus on their genre, honestly. Their older work is undeniably melodic death metal, though. The best determination of the band's genre, however, is yourself, hence why you're analyzing the band and not taking the metal archives' word. I personally believe they are very avant-garde, not in the way of Unexpect, but more in the way of a circus show with their use of cabaret in some songs, for instance, in the case of the song "Tooth, Beak, and Claw," from Feathers and Flesh, the clapping you hear in the song is actually one of the members clapping his, erm.... buttcheeks :) no seriously, look it up! Frankly, I doubt they qualify for prog related now that I read what the qualifications are... but I guess I'll let you decide that.

I would not call them an avant-garde metal band, but they're about as avant-garde, if not a little more so, as Metallica is progressive. If you asked me if Metallica is a progressive band I would say yes, but they're not a progressive metal band per se. But the avant-garde is a component of their sound. But again, the best way to make the determination is to listen to them yourself.

And if this isn't Avant-garde, then idk what is - albeit, maybe on the more melodic/straightforward side; I didn't initially post it because it is not one of their more progressive tracks, but avant-garde it is:

Their song "Puppet Show" in the above submission is probably the most avant-garde song they've ever done.


Edited by bardberic - May 20 2023 at 04:38
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...So if the PM team does not think they are a fit, should we discuss if they should go under prog-related?


That's your team's prerogative. If it was my team and we as a team thought there was a strong case for Prog Related, then I might well bring the case forward to the Prog Related CZ thread (ideally with the summation of the best arguments and links to the most appropriate material...).

Edited by Logan - May 20 2023 at 04:04
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Ah, here are some of the old reports (that are still up) on Metallum, calling them "avant-garde metal":
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/733738
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/775181
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/732119
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/722825

These are four of the five most recent reports

This one says they "explor[e] different genres":
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/683518

Another that calls them avant-garde metal (and Metallum's response was, verbatim "lol no"):
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/672439

"band changes their style with every release":
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/636888

"avant-garde":
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/632230
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/621790

Wrong Music genre X18:
https://www.metal-archives.com/report/by-object/type/band/id/24596/mode/page

^^^ and those are from when they were still labeled as Nu Metal, obviously. As I stated before, the site literally deletes all the new reports contesting their label as metalcore now, so you can't see how many people disagree with it.

On RYM, Feathers and Flesh has an Avant-garde Metal secondary - Progressive Metal was recently voted out apparently, https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/avatar/feathers-and-flesh/

Musicbrainz has avant-garde metal tagged, as well as on HtA, FaF, and AC albums: https://musicbrainz.org/artist/a8d77515-f7b7-4d71-9646-8446a3b2a341

so it does seem fans of the band do agree with the Avant-garde Metal assessment

(also on progfreak.com, they're labeled as "progressive," but to be fair it was just Mike and I who labeled them as such LOL https://tagyourmusic.org/artists/20346)


Edited by bardberic - May 20 2023 at 04:54
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...So if the PM team does not think they are a fit, should we discuss if they should go under prog-related?


That's your team's prerogative. If it was my team and we as a team thought there was a strong case for Prog Related, then I might well bring the case forward to the Prog Related CZ thread (ideally with the summation of the best arguments and links to the most appropriate material...).

I don't think it's a prerogative, but such a big deal has been made already, I'm just asking. Embarrassed

We'll evaluate, it may take a while. Smile
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Points: 32695 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2023 at 10:52
It is your team's (or a Special Collab's) right and choice to bring Avatar, or later Avenged Sevenfold, forward for official Prog Related consideration if you think that there is a good case for Prog Related and would support it there (in such cases I prefer the case to be presented by the team's who ask us to evaluate for Prog Related). That said, at this time I think it very unlikely that Avatar would be accepted into Prog Related, nor am I expecting you to bring the case to Prog Related.
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Points: 41343 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2023 at 11:44
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

It is your team's (or a Special Collab's) right and choice to bring Avatar, or later Avenged Sevenfold, forward for official Prog Related consideration if you think that there is a good case for Prog Related and would support it there (in such cases I prefer the case to be presented by the team's who ask us to evaluate for Prog Related). That said, at this time I think it very unlikely that Avatar would be accepted into Prog Related, nor am I expecting you to bring the case to Prog Related.

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The PM team ultimately voted to reject them. I checked out the three albums the OP suggested as most prog-eligible, as well as contrasting with bits and pieces across their discography.

While I can understand why they were suggested for Progressive Metal proper, I think they stand a better shot in Prog-Related, as originally posited. At times they have some of that System of a Down energy, a group which was my personal gateway to progressive rock, but one I always thought could similarly+hypothetically only work in PA under Related.

Edited by Gordy - June 12 2023 at 01:13
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Points: 792 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2023 at 07:10
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

The PM team ultimately voted to reject them. I checked out the three albums the OP suggested as most prog-eligible, as well as contrasting with bits and pieces across their discography.

While I can understand why they were suggested for Progressive Metal proper, I think they stand a better shot in Prog-Related, as originally posited. At times they have some of that System of a Down energy, a group which was my personal gateway to progressive rock, but one I always thought could similarly+hypothetically only work in PA under Related.


Okay, if you would like to recommend them for prog related to Logan, that would be appreciated. Thank you.
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