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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 12:41
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog will last until the end of time. Just like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.
Mark my words.

How will we mark your words if we're all long gone?


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 12:50
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Hard to parse, I'm assuming there are a couple of extraneous "not"s in there. 

BTW: Stravinsky had all sorts of musical influences, Tchaikovsky for example.

Hi,

I lived with a band for 6 months and played with them a wee bit while learning. They were specially good, doing their own material which the bass player and the drummer had written, and not bother with any other anything. The bass player was inspired by Roger Waters and Rush ... but the concept piece that he had written, was over an hour long and was special and had some neat moments. They stuck to it for the most part, and you could see the value of getting to know their own material, instead of the stuff that you hear at the Hotel circuit in America, which is mostly top ten ... the musicians involved are not likely to go very far.

When they did not get the reception they wanted one time, some members of the band kinda gave up and decided they needed some covers to get the audience going. The band was over 3 months later!

If you had been around so many writers, as I was when young, you would notice a very distinct difference which is the mark of an "artist" ... and many folks, stood up for themselves with a very strong palate and discussion about talent. Gabriel Garcia Marquez might have read others, and been influenced by someone else ... but he knew the secret to his work, was his own vision. Pablo Neruda is the same thing, and ended up, inadvertently becoming a voice for some freedoms that were being taken away in Chile. Albert Camus, even went so far as to say that he hated most folks that thought they were writers, and all they were doing was creating pulp fiction. Jean Genet, turned things around some so one could not really tell what he was about in reality ... but by the time you read "Our Lady of Flowers" and a couple of other things, you realize quickly that he is intentionally throwing a finger at a lot of machinations and commerciality of it all. 

The hard part of a lot of rock music, and its attempt to make it, is more about the success of the band financially, than it is about any artistic definition of their work ... and we forget how much the folks that we love and are inspired by that became known as "progressive" ... in fact did not exactly do covers in a bar. There are always exceptions, of course, but Jimi went out to blow the whole thing ... the writing was great but the voice that created it did not help the song come alive ... and Jimi's version became the watchtower for us to realize how important some things can be and how much it mattered and was valuable.

Again, influences are fine, but if you wanted to make it in the world with a band, you would be doing your own material and make sure that you could improve on it, to be noticed ... go ahead and do covers and see if anyone is going to pay attention ... to me that is the definition of a musician or an artist. The musician gives in to things around him/her and the social everything ... the artist? Nope ... I paint what I see. I play what I hear. I write what my movie shows. 

It becomes the intuition, rather than what we, as FANS, think it should be. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 12:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I lived with a band for 6 months and played with them a wee bit...


Ah, the playful pleasures of being a groupie.
Just a fanboy passin' through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 13:05
Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

...If you don't have the understanding of Classical that I'm talking about, you get Mars Volta and black midi instead of KC, GG and Yes....


Or you sort of get both. Just as some might be interested, black midi has covered King Crimson (and I find similarities between black midi and KC).



I attempted to like this version.  


If I try to like music, I fail. I enjoy it, but I'm not that keen on it overall (instrumentally it's quite faithful), but it seemed to be relevant to King Crimson776's commentary. Mind you, I have only listened to it a couple of times, (I have listened to the KC original many times). There are some really interesting and creative takes on other's music (adaptations) but this one not so much imo. It's skilful however. By the way, some share their disdain for covers/ variations, but there are many that I love and find worthwhile in their own right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 14:18
I prefer Todd Rundgren's version.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 15:20
^ That's great. I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm partial to Caballero Reynaldo's "21st Century Country Man" off his 2015 album, In The Lounge of the Naldo King.    




Edited by Logan - April 16 2024 at 15:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 15:37
^ As I am partial to Shining's interpretation:


Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 18:22
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I lived with a band for 6 months and played with them a wee bit...


Ah, the playful pleasures of being a groupie.

Hi,

Actually, two of us worked in the same place, in a house of pies and bakery. We turned the garage into a studio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 18:28
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I lived with a band for 6 months and played with them a wee bit...


Ah, the playful pleasures of being a groupie.


Hi,

Actually, two of us worked in the same place, in a house of pies and bakery. We turned the garage into a studio.


Ah, very cool. It rather made my silly associative brain imagine, in part, a garage band version of Premiata Forneria Marconi (Award-winning Marconi Bakery).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 19:01
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ As I am partial to Shining's interpretation:


Cool

Now that's re-imagined!!... Killer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stigfzm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 21:50
Well, actually prog is not the only case. In fact, the whole genre of rocking music is definite to face the same problem of exposure. We can put another musical genre as a comparison: Classical Music. As Sir Paul McCartney once opined in his days in the Beatles during an interview, "I think rock n' roll is today's classical music", he just embraced the predominance of rock music in the market over the real classical music at that time and admitted the popularity of classical music before that of rock. However, I think, there's an undertone there: rock music will face the same promblem of classical music----- being dated. Just look at sales, you will see the Asian groups and pop electrical songs heading the hit list for a long time. There is certain rock groups which gain popularity just for a while, however. The whole rock genre has already experienced lack of exposure and low sales. It appears to be secondary in the music market. Just like classical music during the 1950s and 1960s. 
    And the classical 70s prog, obviously, is among the lowest of low in the hierachy of rock due to its issues like being too difficult to start with and being too bourgeois or elite-like. What's more, I think prog's mission to influence musicians has come to a halt these days. When we talk about 70s music, definitely, King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd, ELP are big names we can't avoid whose influence was still carried into the 80s when Talking Heads, Marillion, Rush stepped up to the forefronts whith their legacies. (Btw: We can also make a bold claim: no prog in 70s, no Bohemian Rhapsody.) Math rock, opera rock, to name a few, all inherit prog's boldness in blending different musc elements. Even Kurt Kobain received KC's power of Red and started the legend we all know. But, now just tell me, besides new prog, have any famous rock stars during the two decades after 2000 specially mentioned 70s prog as the greatest impact and gained predominance over pops or massive popularity Dream Theatre, Tool, and the likes once had who can ascertain their roots back in 70s? Pretty rare. And the strak reality is, many new young fans are drawn to prog simply because of the publicity of JoJo's Bizarre Adventures instead of modern rock bands.
   There's another fact. I keep in contact with many rock fans. Some of them like prog but hate Keith Emerson especially. Their thinking is very simple: who the hell will be insterested in rock interpretation of classical songs that nobody actually listens to or even cares, which will take back to my aforementioned point on rock and classical music.
    But, what people must admit is that if someone delves into quintessential rocking music, rather than electrical pop sh*ts, those big names of prog are inevitable. They just stand there. Nobody can circumvent. The Beatles designed a blueprint of rock music and prog was one of the most outstanding pioneers to reinvent it. Their musicianship decides their characters: they are not postitutes to give pleasure, rather the cynical Diogenēs to push limits, explore boundaries. So, that is why when ELP started to embrace extravagance during mid 70s, their doom was inevitiable. And all classical prog bands died soon. 
   Still, new tech and interpretation of music helps to inspire kids to develop new prog of thier own. They put a completely different complexion over prog and ensure its continuity. Prog is not going to be doomed in the future. It just lives in another form we might not be familiar with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 00:18
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

With the dawn of people being able to make prog albums literally on their phones, I think it's a safe bet to say it's secure

I resemble that remark! 

I have a Mellotron app on my iPad that is drop-dead AMAZING!!  In fact, it is the same one that Fripp & Company used onstage when I saw their "An Evening with the Elements" show at Chicago's Vic Theater!  

It is an amazing time for making music, but just making squeaky little sounds is not enough.  There has to be a modicum of talent behind it, honesty, and dedication to craft.  

The future of prog is secure.  



Edited by cstack3 - April 17 2024 at 00:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 00:38
^ Yes, some people who who frown upon the new digital tools would be quite surprised if they knew that many of their favorite artists from the 60s/70s are embracing them. It's MUCH easier to make (as in record/mix/master) great music nowadays, and there are many more musicians doing it. This means that there are a lot of mediocre releases (since not everyone is talented), but also many awesome ones. Now we only need tools to find the hidden gems Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote alainPP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 03:06
Hello, I come back to this major post: prog has been dead since the advent of punk, then thanks to Marillion and Twelfth Night it was reborn from its ashes to return to the beginning of grunge... In fact, it's more of a sound that has evolved over time in my opinion, a sound that means that today we can love the sounds of the 70s if we open up to those of the 2020 decade, based on metal, folk and post rock. Otherwise rock will definitely be dead (go listen to Pure Reason Revolution, Leprous and Kyros for example to understand that energy is also needed in today's prog)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 04:42
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The future belongs to the young. 
...

Hi,

With one HUGE difference. The young tend to do their own thing, not someone else's!

You really think Stravinsky would have gotten where he did by doing some other local, and known music of the time? 

It's not, necessarily, about being young ... it's about being "stubborn" enough to do your own thing, and not give a cahoot about anything else. Weird that you STILL don't see that in the ranks of Progressive Music, specially in the late 60's and early 70's ... very few of them played covers, and just went out their own way. I kinda do not think of The Nice, or later ELP playing "covers" in fun stuff that gave them a mental break! 

The really special progressive folks NEVER played covers or anyone else's material!

Oh, I don't know....ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was one long cover, yes?  

Sometimes a cover can be played progressively, like Yes' cover of "America" by Simon & Garfunkel.  That was recorded on the upswing of their progressive evolution as a band, not on the decline. 

I rarely hear young musicians playing covers, except for either practice or for kicks.   I do notice quite a bit of innovation going on, and experimentation.  

To make way for the young, the old gotta die. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 04:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Yes, some people who who frown upon the new digital tools would be quite surprised if they knew that many of their favorite artists from the 60s/70s are embracing them. It's MUCH easier to make (as in record/mix/master) great music nowadays, and there are many more musicians doing it. This means that there are a lot of mediocre releases (since not everyone is talented), but also many awesome ones. Now we only need tools to find the hidden gems Big smile

Nice reply!  Don't forget, our "heroes" had to record quite a few "mediocre" releases before they hit paydirt with LPs like CTTE, LTIA, Foxtrot and so forth.  

Thanks to this website, I find quite a few gems, hidden or in plain sight, in music.  Some of the new prog from Scandinavia is very impressive for example!  

I wonder if the new King Crimson clone "Beat" is going to make some original music?  I wish they had selected Michael Keneally instead of Steve Vai.  I saw Keneally solo over Fripp's Soundscapes in concert, he was brilliant!!  We'll see!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 05:31
"It's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future." (Niels Bohr)

I say the world is heterogeneous and will still be. Cultural unification and diversification are going on at the same time. Certain music may survive through small minorities who are interested, while the big business will go elsewhere, at it has already done for a long time.  Some of these minorities will die out, some won't (it won't help that the generations who saw prog taking off will vanish, but we can be rather optimistic about somebody carrying on the torch). The old prog rock vs. progressive discussion is also important here, but actually to some extent both sides of the coin may survive, classical 70s prog rock may continue having some small but dedicated following, and the innovative part of the younger generations will progress, but chances are they will not necessarily progress in the directions where the older generation would want them to go. Whether what comes out would still be associated in any way with "progressive rock" is anyone's guess, but that has already been a broad church in the seventies, which was and is a good thing for sure, and helpful for survival

Of course most minor bands will be forgotten but then there may be the odd exception, maybe a few hundred people worldwide who still fly the flag of, say, Zeuhl or whatever, in 2100, and be it just for taking pride of being different.

Conclusion: What do I know? 


Edited by Lewian - April 17 2024 at 05:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AJ Junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 11:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


Of course most minor bands will be forgotten but then there may be the odd exception, maybe a few hundred people worldwide who still fly the flag of, say, Zeuhl or whatever, in 2100, and be it just for taking pride of being different.


That'll be my kids one day for sure Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2024 at 15:59
Originally posted by Stigfzm Stigfzm wrote:

Well, actually prog is not the only case. In fact, the whole genre of rocking music is definite to face the same problem of exposure. We can put another musical genre as a comparison: Classical Music. As Sir Paul McCartney once opined in his days in the Beatles during an interview, "I think rock n' roll is today's classical music", he just embraced the predominance of rock music in the market over the real classical music at that time and admitted the popularity of classical music before that of rock. However, I think, there's an undertone there: rock music will face the same promblem of classical music----- being dated. Just look at sales, you will see the Asian groups and pop electrical songs heading the hit list for a long time. There is certain rock groups which gain popularity just for a while, however. The whole rock genre has already experienced lack of exposure and low sales. It appears to be secondary in the music market. Just like classical music during the 1950s and 1960s. 
    And the classical 70s prog, obviously, is among the lowest of low in the hierachy of rock due to its issues like being too difficult to start with and being too bourgeois or elite-like. What's more, I think prog's mission to influence musicians has come to a halt these days. When we talk about 70s music, definitely, King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd, ELP are big names we can't avoid whose influence was still carried into the 80s when Talking Heads, Marillion, Rush stepped up to the forefronts whith their legacies. (Btw: We can also make a bold claim: no prog in 70s, no Bohemian Rhapsody.) Math rock, opera rock, to name a few, all inherit prog's boldness in blending different musc elements. Even Kurt Kobain received KC's power of Red and started the legend we all know. But, now just tell me, besides new prog, have any famous rock stars during the two decades after 2000 specially mentioned 70s prog as the greatest impact and gained predominance over pops or massive popularity Dream Theatre, Tool, and the likes once had who can ascertain their roots back in 70s? Pretty rare. And the strak reality is, many new young fans are drawn to prog simply because of the publicity of JoJo's Bizarre Adventures instead of modern rock bands.
   There's another fact. I keep in contact with many rock fans. Some of them like prog but hate Keith Emerson especially. Their thinking is very simple: who the hell will be insterested in rock interpretation of classical songs that nobody actually listens to or even cares, which will take back to my aforementioned point on rock and classical music.
    But, what people must admit is that if someone delves into quintessential rocking music, rather than electrical pop sh*ts, those big names of prog are inevitable. They just stand there. Nobody can circumvent. The Beatles designed a blueprint of rock music and prog was one of the most outstanding pioneers to reinvent it. Their musicianship decides their characters: they are not postitutes to give pleasure, rather the cynical Diogenēs to push limits, explore boundaries. So, that is why when ELP started to embrace extravagance during mid 70s, their doom was inevitiable. And all classical prog bands died soon. 
   Still, new tech and interpretation of music helps to inspire kids to develop new prog of thier own. They put a completely different complexion over prog and ensure its continuity. Prog is not going to be doomed in the future. It just lives in another form we might not be familiar with.

Maybe English is not your first language but that is still a truly great post nevertheless. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2024 at 07:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Oh, I don't know....ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was one long cover, yes?  
...

Hi,

Bizarre notion .. to say the least, and it just shows how much "music" so many rock aficionados look at music history ... there are no less than at least 20/25 recordings of the whole thing that can be discussed, all of them, (many times) considered different interpretations, but all with the same title and "complete".

If there were versions by Leonard Bernstein or Herbert von Karahan, I would have them in my collection. 

It's tough saying this ... and when you see the live performance of Jeff Beck doing one of the best known arias, we still can not appreciate it, and still look at it as just another rock song solo and what not.

Please show how well versed you are in music ... instead of delineating something that is only a "cover" in rock terms because we dislike classical music and tend to shine on any band doing it. And before ELP's version, The Nice had also done many pieces of classical music.

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
I rarely hear young musicians playing covers, except for either practice or for kicks.   I do notice quite a bit of innovation going on, and experimentation.  

To make way for the young, the old gotta die. 

Innovation and experimentation has very little to do with age. There are just as many (comparatively speaking) experimenting, today, that are young and old all the same. Innovation has to do more with your internal person, than it does "music", or some kind of colorful bullmerde, that folks might think explain what the experimentation and improvisation is all about ... 

The real issue is the education, and places like PA ... posting stuff that is demeaning to the "talent" that likes to improvise and experiment ... because in the end, it tends to intimidate the artist, into thinking that what he/she is doing is not right, and needs to be redone with a more "recognizable" style and (worse ... !!!) some lyrics so folks know what is going on!

But most of us here, are afraid to say something about experimentations and improvisations, because the words for it are difficult to come by ... in general, if you can not FEEL, and LIVE in these pieces, your ability to say something interesting or of value won't show up!

Please help the music ... not make it look like it is a left over ... that you throw at the dog or cat, or chickens, or pig! Cry
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