Grendel is not Apocalypse in 9/8 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 04:52 | ||
Sorry, BF - that isn't true. Time signatures have nothing to do with tempo, and nor do notes. A 1/8 note is always a 1/8 note. A Semibreve (4 crotchets) is considered a "whole" note. For example, in 4/4, we have 4 1/4 notes to the bar. If an Adagio or a Lento is in 4/4, then all beats are 1/4 beats. If an Allegro or a Presto is in 4/4, then all beats are still 1/4 beats - the tempo indicates that the base time for the beats has changed, not the proportion. I hope this clarifies it!
I've never read that theory about the metronome swing - it sounds interesting. Could you tell me where you read it? |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 10:58 | ||
Sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood me, Certif1ed. This is not what I said. I never doubted that being an 1/8 note has nothing to do with the tempo; in fact this is what I wanted to point out. But whether it is a 9/4 measure or a 9/8 has very much to do with the given tempo, and this is simply because the set tempo defines how many bars there are within a given time. (Actually it is mathematically a little more complicated, but I'll skip that). As to the metronome swing theory: I didn't read about it, I heard a radio feature about it. It was first postulated by musicologist Willem Retze Talsma; Grete Wehmeyer and Clemens von Gleich are two other musicologists who are of the same opinion. They call their theory "Tempo Giusto", "Right Tempo". Edited by BaldFriede |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Biggles
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 18 2005 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:06 | ||
The only thing I have to say about Marillion is that if I want to listen to Genesis, then I will listen to Genesis. |
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goose
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4097 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:13 | ||
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:40 | ||
Could you explain then? I must have mis-read it. |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:50 | ||
Have a look here for the explanation of "tempo giusto": http://www.tempogiusto.de/ (there is a button on the left named "English site" side where you can get the explanation in English).
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:51 | ||
This is only partly true; Marillion and the other Neo-Prog bands did keep Prog Rock going in the 1980s - that's a fact. They drew new audiences into Prog Rock, who were then able to explore and enjoy the roots of these new bands. They also had the beneficial side-effect of keeping elements of 1970s Prog Rock alive. Using Marillion as the example, they kept Progressing - their music from the 1980s has 1980s stamped all over it. It's Prog for the 1980s - that's the point. Twelfth Night were one of the greatest examples of this - compare them to any "Classic" prog band and get laughed at. King Crimson played a different style - and that was also progressive to some extent, when they weren't stuck in a rut, at which times it wasn't. Finally, the similarities between Marillion and Genesis are so superficial that the constant comparisons are just silly, and obviously based on what was printed in the media at the time, not reality. I mean: "Garden Party" sounds exactly like "The Knife", doesn't it? It's interesting to note that the only comments making this dubious comparison are just statements with no backup whatsoever. One might suspect that absolutely no thought went into them.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:59 | ||
Isn't it self-explanatory? One piece is a largo, which means that its tempo is slower; an 1/8 note in it will be slower than an 1/8 note in an allegro; in fact the length of an 1/8 note in a largo is the same (more or less, because, as you can see from the metronome scale I added in my first post, there is still quite a range about the tempo of a largo) as the length of a 1/4 note in an allegro (provided all other musical parameters are the same). Edited by BaldFriede |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20575 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:04 | ||
^ isn't it the other way round? a 1/8 note in a largo should be about as long as a 1/4 note in an allegro, assuming that the allegro is about twice as fast (in terms of bpm) as the largo. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20575 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:07 | ||
Incidentally: I bought an Ivanhoe CD this week - greak stuff. One of the songs features alternating 15/16 and 14/16 (equals 7/8). I was a little surprised at first that a band like Ivanhoe would use that complex a signature, but it's true. |
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2005 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 3254 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:08 | ||
Oh you musical guys and your musical terms I tried to learn that stuff once but i thought it was friggin boring and unnecessary i found
Edited by maidenrulez |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:09 | ||
That's what I said; did you misread my post? |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20575 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:13 | ||
Yes, apparently I did ... sorry! Of course you were right all along.
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Pablosnerudas
Forum Newbie Joined: November 04 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:29 | ||
Yes, Apocalypse in 9/8 is in 9/8 Yes, Marillion's Grendel was derived from the above - but in 4/4 because there is no way that Fish has ever been able to sing anything in a slightly odd time signature. Yes, Marillion were initially heavily influenced by older, 70's prog bands (as were Pallas and Twelfth Night) But no, they did not keep prog alive during the 80's - they did as much for 80's prog as Rush did with Grace Under Pressure (God, that album still churns my stomach). Marillion just kept reminding us what we missed because Collins got out from behind that drum kit!! Just as Spock's Beard reminded us in the 90's of what Yes could have been doing if only they hadn't let Trevor Horn near them. Crimson, on the other hand, produced seminal works during the 80's that embraced modern sounds and technologies and yet still kept their musical inaccessible to the Cheltenham Average. |
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I don't think I ever did glid before ...
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:04 | ||
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Biggles
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 18 2005 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:20 | ||
Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 14:12 | ||
Give examples or your statement is pointless,and our trust in you would be misguided.... |
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Prosciutto
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 23 2005 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 123 |
Posted: November 04 2005 at 15:39 | ||
In the beginning Marillion were influenced by Genesis: Fish wearing make up, that riff on Grendel was a naive rip off from Apocalypse in 9/8. The Genesis influence is also noticeable but in some minor way on Script for a Jester Tear, there're also influences by Camel (Steve Rothery on Chelsea Monday and Forgotten Sons sounds like Andy Latimer). Some years later we can hear "Steve Hackett" on Warm Wet Circles but I think Steve Rothery wanted to pay some tribute this time. Nobody can deny those influences on the early days of Marillion, fortunately soon they found their own sound. Edited by Prosciutto |
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Don't be a prog-hole, please...
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:11 | ||
No they DEFINITELY don't. Trust me on this one. Does "Fugazi" sound like "The Musical Box"? Nope.
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:40 | ||
I have to say I've never heard anything by Marillion that I would say sounded like a clone of a Genesis song. I must say it took me a little while longer to get into Marillion than some of the other neo-prog bands, but I found that was because in all honesty, Marillion were more original than IQ or Pendragon were. Sure, there are elements in Marillion's sound that are akin to Genesis, but there are also traces of Pink Floyd and VDGG in there too, yet neither are explicit enough to be labelled 'soundalike'. In fact, 'Misplaced Childhood', alongside Camel's 'Nude', is one of the only 80s prog albums I would label a totally flawless album. |
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