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micky View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Regresive!!!.... Ja Ja Ja!!!
    Posted: April 01 2006 at 13:35
Originally posted by Kid-A Kid-A wrote:

I hate the term 'regressive'. Bands are allowed to copy other bands. Pop/rock bands do it all the time. Not all 'prog' bands are going to be highly innovative, that would be impossible. I mean, it really shows something about Yes that they have inspired so many groups to make similar music.

'Instrumental masturbation' is a great term IMO.



hate it or not... it probably is an apt name... the root of progressive is to progress.  You aren't progressing if you are heading down trails and styles that others have already blazed.  That's what makes 70's prog so special and so timeless to many prog fans... it was so new and without precedent in rock.  There were no direct inspirations and no suits telling those guys they have to sound like x to get signed and sell albums.  It was an art back then.... not strictly about a paycheck.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2006 at 13:25
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The point is: Bands don't have to be highly creative all of the time. Musicians should be totally free in their music ... I try to not expect them to do what I fancy. If they decide to base their music on a specific style of the 70s ... why not? It can still be brilliantly composed and have lots of interesting ideas that make it worthwhile. The other extreme (0% derivative/regressive) is not automatically a good thing either ... a band can be totally experimental and still fail miserably.


So: I think it's best to not have too specific expectations ... you're only going to be disappointed. And the more specific your expectations are, the more it is likely that you'll miss out on some really nice music!



I would go for that, but, the evolution seen on bands like TOOL (and yes, I still think they are not progressive; but they are awsome), weird Jumps like "Earthling" (Bowie), The soft sounds of Sigur Rós, or the ludic turn that is "Animal Collective" tells me more and more about some kind of musicians that will always trying to reach some kind of artistic integrity regarding creative activitym for their own satisfaction on the matter. Self repeating is boring to those who create.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 02:02

The point is: Bands don't have to be highly creative all of the time. Musicians should be totally free in their music ... I try to not expect them to do what I fancy. If they decide to base their music on a specific style of the 70s ... why not? It can still be brilliantly composed and have lots of interesting ideas that make it worthwhile. The other extreme (0% derivative/regressive) is not automatically a good thing either ... a band can be totally experimental and still fail miserably.

So: I think it's best to not have too specific expectations ... you're only going to be disappointed. And the more specific your expectations are, the more it is likely that you'll miss out on some really nice music!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 19:49

i dont like the term regressive, but i also dont get people that would listen to music from today that is meant to mimic bands from the past

Aaron

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 13:59
One is allowed to do anything. One is also allowed to like anything. We are not talking about taste, but validation. Off course, I can say that I'm the last of the classical composers, but that won't help to the evolution of anything. I want my price now, since I'm using the word "anything" a lot of times in the same paragraph...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 13:42

I hate the term 'regressive'. Bands are allowed to copy other bands. Pop/rock bands do it all the time. Not all 'prog' bands are going to be highly innovative, that would be impossible. I mean, it really shows something about Yes that they have inspired so many groups to make similar music.

'Instrumental masturbation' is a great term IMO.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 12:43

Buena cuncuna, saludos!!

I totally agree with you in this thread... In first place I think you can't simply get rid of the context of any form of art. Every artwork has its period in time and it hardly can be fully understood or appreciated without it or even without knowing a bit about the people behind it. (IMO)

Second, those bands trying to do now the same thing that was made so splendidly in the 70's... I don't know, perhaps they are like painters who can't get Picasso from getting in their works.

And third, "instrumental masturbation" (what a great term!) deserves a            (I won't say names...)

 



Edited by Machinemessiah
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 09:57
Originally posted by Firepuck Firepuck wrote:

Using some of the comments put forward on this thread would lead you to the conclusion that only the FIRST album of any group MAY POSSIBLY meet the criteria to be called progressive, after that - it's all been done before...

 

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound

Funny, but it's still progressive rock to me

Krautrock, Art Rock, Zeuhl, RIO

It's still progressive rock to me

Post Rock, Space Rock, Canterbury, Regressive

It's still progressive rock to me!

 

(Billy Joel wannabe)

I wouldn't say that. Take Pink Floyd, for example. Progressive from first album to, probably, The wall (wich is more political driven). Is the evolution...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:54

Originally posted by Pafnutij Pafnutij wrote:

I'd rather listen to a regressive band with good compositions than all those bands being "progressive" for the sake of it.

You have a serious point there. Well, almost. I'd rather listen to AIR albums, far more interesting than that infamous Liquid tension experiment, for example... I'm beginning to understand another term, an expression in fact, created by someone on one of this many threads: "Instrumental Masturbation". Leaving aside my own investigation of the concept and his possible connection to my Ukelele, those abusive bands (¿shredders, they call them?) are in my no list too. But that, my friends, will be another thread. And has been...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:40

Using some of the comments put forward on this thread would lead you to the conclusion that only the FIRST album of any group MAY POSSIBLY meet the criteria to be called progressive, after that - it's all been done before...

 

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound

Funny, but it's still progressive rock to me

Krautrock, Art Rock, Zeuhl, RIO

It's still progressive rock to me

Post Rock, Space Rock, Canterbury, Regressive

It's still progressive rock to me!

 

(Billy Joel wannabe)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:30
I'd rather listen to a regressive band with good compositions than all those bands being "progressive" for the sake of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:27

Originally posted by cmidkiff cmidkiff wrote:

yea!! ..any band that uses drums, bass electric or acoustic guitar, piano, synth, vocals, are all regressive , these instuments along with a ton of other instruments have been used so much for so long its rediculous. Also, they shouldn't use verses and choruses because that is ancient too!

This isn't very helpfull. Exploration and experimentation, instead of revival. ¿How would you feel if the end of your life catches you with no new experiences on your ears?. As for me, I want to see if someone can create something extraordinary again. Animal Collective is very near. So is Sigur Rós. And by the way; there are new instruments; and new ways to produce music...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:23

Originally posted by JusLisn JusLisn wrote:

I guess the problem may be that the term "progressive" rock refers to not only a description of music that expands our acceptance of what is rock, but also, it is a term used to refer to a period of creativity (60's - 70's) when this became important to many people. I think that this web site uses a better description. For example: The Watch is under the sub-gender neo progressive and bands like Wobbler and The Flower Kings are symphonic prog. So now the the question becomes; are symphonic prog bands regressive?

I the "symphonic prog" band manages to create something inspired on this times, ans is still qualifyed for the "symphonic prog" label, then yes. ¿How can I put this?... Take Stravinsky, for example. Using old rules, he created new music, with a turn on the tonal composition style and on the concepts behind the sound. So, he didn't create a Beethoven like thing, he spoke with the ideas that were ment fof him because of being alive on those years... an so on. Anyway, the word I like and I'll keep. 

(I just don't know how do you call that; the only thing I can say is, meanwhile everybody was exploring atonal music, or dodecaphonic composition; Stravinsky used the good old classic method, but subeverted, somehow)... Off course, as someone wiser aid on this very website; it is just music...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:14
Well, to solve that, we should take a look at the term in just one way: THE WAY I SEE IT ...
No, seriously, to make this simple; I see the word "Regressive" (within this context; I know that the word exists since a lot of time, please write better jokes) as in "Band that is now, on this times, trying to emulate some of the styles from the past, instead of trying to get ahead of Sigur Rós or GYBE. And yes, out of the original context, any sign is obsolete. Art is a bunch os signs, merged and ordered by a special someone, etc. Cool "Progressive" vybe: Adrian Bellew; Trent Reznor, David Bowie, Bryan Eno, etc. Uncool (Regressive): I don't know. I here a lot of stuff on the radio, but I don't catch the names, because of my "Regressive" (now I know how to call it) filter, that prevents me to go for copies. The flower kings and Thomas Bodin are into my "please, no" list. Werid: Dreamtheater. Kansas like, but on somekind of overdose, and without good lyrics. And... I love Animal Collective.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:09
yea!! ..any band that uses drums, bass electric or acoustic guitar, piano, synth, vocals, are all regressive , these instuments along with a ton of other instruments have been used so much for so long its rediculous. Also, they shouldn't use verses and choruses because that is ancient too!

Edited by cmidkiff
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 09:44
I guess the problem may be that the term "progressive" rock refers to not only a description of music that expands our acceptance of what is rock, but also, it is a term used to refer to a period of creativity (60's - 70's) when this became important to many people. I think that this web site uses a better description. For example: The Watch is under the sub-gender neo progressive and bands like Wobbler and The Flower Kings are symphonic prog. So now the the question becomes; are symphonic prog bands regressive?
Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo. So little time, so much to know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 09:23

Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Still, no comments on who's the author of the term...

"regressive" is a normal word ... it was invented very long ago. Surely it has been applied to music for centuries.

BTW: I like to distinguish between "retro" and "derivative":

  • "Retro": Music which emulates a style of the past ... not necessarily in a derivative and unoriginal way.
  • "Derivative": Music which merely copies something that has been done before.

Of course it's quite difficult to make that distinction ... and it is a personal decision.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 08:57
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by Firepuck Firepuck wrote:

And what is wrong with sounds from the past?

Nothing, as long as they are trully from the past. ¿Would you pass some baroque music composed last year as something representative of the artistic sensibility from that period?. Context and time are parameters for every form of Art. (Sorry about that, it sounds too theoreticall. I'm a free spirit, believe me, but I do enjoy some conceptual framework around things, being an amateur writer as I am, etc...)

No, but does that make it any less progressive?

As an example. The Watch released 'Vacuum' last year and even though it has a definite Gabrielesque Genesis sound to it it is still fresh and new (IMHO).

I wouldn't try to pass it off as a 1970's piece of music, or try to pass it off as representative of symphonic progressive music from that period. But it should be allowed to stand as an example of a type of progressive music being produced today.

I can't imagine anyone trying to pigeonhole baroque music to a particular decade, and the fact that it is still being written and produced today doesn't diminish it's quality or importance - I think it elevates it.

Hopefully in the decades to come the same will be true with progressive rock music. I hope that some of the 'progressive' groups of the 2070's will be writing and producing music that can be unique yet can still be founded in the past. That way, our music will continue to live on...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 08:42
Still, no comments on who's the author of the term...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 08:38
Originally posted by TRoTZ TRoTZ wrote:

i agree with you cuncuna. Most of the progressive bands nowadays are not "progressive" they should be called regressive. For me, progressive rock incorporates the idea of fusing new ideas to creat something NEW, DIFFERENT!

And in that class, i only find bands like PORCUPINE TREE, TOOL, RADIOHEAD, SIGUR ROS, GODSPEED YOU BLACK EMPEROR and some few others. Bands like Flower Kings or Spock's Beard are pure regressive rock, as most of the "prog" done nowadays...

Great words!

I completely agree with you!

For every truth even the contrary is true...
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