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Ben2112 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atheist prog?
    Posted: April 07 2006 at 22:14
Originally posted by coffeeintheface coffeeintheface wrote:



Yeah, look up the lyrics to Meshuggah's "Terminal Illusions." It seems
that lead singer Jens Kidman is an uber-athiest, haha. I don't know if
you could speak for the rest of the band though. As for Opeth, I have
no clue, given that I haven't even heard their music.


Hey just out of curiosity, are you the same coffee in the face as is on youtube.com? I think you're the one who posted himself playing Red? I am Rocinante on that site and I think I just commented recently on your vid.

I knew I had seen that nickname before!

Sorry for O/T. I ain't touching this topic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 21:24
Originally posted by man@arms man@arms wrote:

 Well stated!  I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread, probably because I too am an atheist.  I came from a Christian family and even though I tried going to church on several occasions it was always an effort to force myself to believe in any of it.  My rationale being that believing in God or Christ was no different than believing in the Loch Ness Monster or the Tooth Fairy.  It is just fantasy and make believe.  I am more scientific in that I want hard evidence.  However I do believe that life exists outside of planet earth, though I have no proof.  But, the universe is so vast and complex how could life not exist elsewhere?  Of course this is just me going on another tangent. 



 Thanks. Id like hard evidence also. something coded into the nature of the universe would be cool. If you've read the book 'Contact' by carl sagan and (oops forgot her name) you know what I mean. In the book during the contact with the alien being we are told that in the calculation for pie can be found the code for a circle, pie being mathmatics about the measurment of a circle... hard coded evidence of an intentional design of the universe. Left out of the movie of course which really had an almost  opposite message from the book. That's hollywood for ya though.

 I think in the end for us scientificly minded types it comes down to probabilities. It's just more likely that there is life on other planets that for a specific creation myth to be true. So its easy to have faith in things that are probable. Btw did you get caught up in the discovery of liquid water on Io? I'm not convinced it's all that important but its still pretty cool.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 21:15

Originally posted by Flyingsod Flyingsod wrote:

Thanks for posting that Peart letter. That was great. Makes me  want to read his non Rush writting even more.


Jethro Tull... Someone said Ians beliefe in christ was fact, someone said he is an atheist. how bout some documentation (other than the obvious song lyrics). I always fancied him an old world celtic mythos believer.

 Did no one follow the link to the gospel of FSM? We've  got to get moving on these eyepatches before the polar ice caps melt and drown us all.


Laurent, I wanted to say the same thing but couldn't come up with a tactful was to say it. Good job.

I'm pretty sure Ian Anderson is a theist. He just belives that religon is not really a blessing and it gets between man and god. That is the topic of the song 'My God'.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 21:11
Thanks for posting that Peart letter. That was great. Makes me  want to read his non Rush writting even more.


Jethro Tull... Someone said Ians beliefe in christ was fact, someone said he is an atheist. how bout some documentation (other than the obvious song lyrics). I always fancied him an old world celtic mythos believer.

 Did no one follow the link to the gospel of FSM? We've  got to get moving on these eyepatches before the polar ice caps melt and drown us all.


Laurent, I wanted to say the same thing but couldn't come up with a tactful was to say it. Good job.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 20:10
Originally posted by Laurent Laurent wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:


Deep down inside I don't think everyone is a true atheit, it's more because thay have been hurt in their faith somehow, and so go against it.


And I could say that, deep down inside, Christians are just insecure, afraid and weak. So they make believe in this supernatural deity to reassure their fears.

I could say that, but I won't. I don't know it to be true, and am no position to judge the motives, and character of others who choose to believe, or disbelieve what they do.

All life starts from some where ? its not about being hurt in the past that makes me believe, its the questions of where physical creation  started and by what ? if you think we are the stuff of stars you need to ask yourself what made the stars ?  If you think man crawled out of a swamp (as in Darwin's theory) what made the swamp ? life is a miracle its beyond magic and beyond explanations , besides man is far to ignorant to accept the facts and he would only manipulate the facts to please his own ego and greed as proven so many times in history, for this reason I am pleased that its kept a mystery and everything we do here on this planet has already been expected, just make sure what you do here is for the betterment of humanity because every single action affects all of us.



Edited by Masque
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:59

ELP's Tarkus has a lot to do with the corruptive potential of religion.  I think though, that it's important to distinguish between the question of theism/atheism (whether a person believes in the existence of a deity) and that of religion (what a person's precise spritual beliefs are). 

Incidentally, does anyone know anything about Steve Hogarth's religious beliefs? He sings about god sometimes, but on one occasion describes god as being female, perhaps to suggest that he is not referring to a specific god of the judeo-christian-islamic model? 

Witness the man who raves at the wall!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:46

The very question of this topic presuposes that there is a general agreement on definition about religion or atheism, which do not exist in practice, at least not in full scope.

Another thing, it assumes that prog rock therefore music therefore art must necessarily express a certain religious, political, ideological or philosophical standpoint, which again is highly debatable.

Atheism of course means "disbelief in divine being(s)" but itself can be structured as a religion.

There exists for example "Agnostic Church" in USA, with organization, membership, practice and defined creed "we don't know and we don't care" (about existance of God). Now, if I don't adhere to this "church" does it make me "anti-agnostic", therefore gnostic or theist?  This looks like a Zen question...

The whole sub-culture movement of the 1960s (from which of course the prog rock sprung up) was largely anti-establishment, anti-institutional and anti-Christian church as an established body of authority. It was informed by the so-called "religion of nature", sort of neo-paganism, and many influences from the East Asian religions, notably Hinduism and Buddhism. It was all an important segment of the psychedelic rock, acid-culture and peace movement.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:44
Very interesting, I really like all the feedback I've gotten on this one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:35

Atheist prog?
Rush!
Indian Summer (1 song oon the album).

Probably in many cases the ideological or spiritual preferences of the singer are considered as a profile of the band. (or - in case of King Crimson - guitarist's..).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:25
Tull = Anderson, and Anderson is an atheist
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 18:02

Originally posted by KazimirMajorinc KazimirMajorinc wrote:

I guess Area should be atheists, since they were extreme leftists. 

So your saying all extreme leftist are atheist?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 16:11
I guess Area should be atheists, since they were extreme leftists. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 16:08
This is why I don't like these kind of threads. They always seem to offend everyone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 15:51
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:


Deep down inside I don't think everyone is a true atheit, it's more because thay have been hurt in their faith somehow, and so go against it.


And I could say that, deep down inside, Christians are just insecure, afraid and weak. So they make believe in this supernatural deity to reassure their fears.

I could say that, but I won't. I don't know it to be true, and am no position to judge the motives, and character of others who choose to believe, or disbelieve what they do.


Edited by Laurent

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 15:28

Here's to Neil Peart!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 15:16
Wow...a very well-written response by Mr. Peart.  As a believer in the Bible and a follower of Jesus, I applaud him for his acute insight into human nature and perhaps even having a greater glimpse of the Truth than many of us who call ourselves "Christians."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 14:59
Wow, this post really took off better than I thought it would.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 13:45

This is a fairly interesting read. It's a letter to the editor of a Texas newspaper that Neil Peart wrote in response to their coverage of a conference of some religious group claiming that rock music has subliminal satanic messages in it.

Somewhat related to this thread, definitely gives you insite into his beliefs.

A few Peart/Rush songs that give you more insite: Anthem, Freewill, Tom Sawyer, look up the lyrics.

Quote ROCK GROUPS HARDLY SATANISTIC

I am writing in response to an article which was written by your reporter Jim Hankins in your issue of July 19, "Group seeks to show rock 'n roll Satanic." It was awhile ago, but the article was sent to me through several intermediary steps. Besides, it's never too late to discuss a matter like this, and as I happen to be a member of one of the groups mentioned, perhaps I can interject a little rationality and truth into such a hysterical exercise in propaganda.

Satanism. Now here is a word that should be kept away from some people the way you should keep matches from children and guns from jealous husbands!

There is a certain trait evident in human nature which some people seem to possess in greater degrees. It derives from a state of insecurity and low self-esteem and shows itself in the actions of those who wish to make themselves look good by making others look bad. You see it everywhere once you start to look for it. People who can't gain respect for their own merits feel obliged to try and tear down those who do. We see it in the failures who try to prove their aloofness by criticizing the actions of those who actually do something, or in cases like this one where the weak and pusillanimous prove their righteousness by trying to punish the "less-righteous."

A big advantage to such an attitude is that it keeps them so involved in other peoples' lives that they need not examine their own.

So these are the grim-faced hypocrites who are stirring around in the dark places of life hoping to find something - anything - dirtier than their own reflection. And if they can't find anything - no problem - they'll just make something up!

And here they are accusing rock musicians of being sincere and dedicated Satanists attempting to poison the souls of America's youth with subliminal messages of devil-worship. You know that's almost a very good joke! Almost.

As one who knows many of these "demonic figures" personally, especially some of those mentioned in the article, the idea of some of these sold-out, burnt-out, cynical, strutting peacocks being so deeply and religiously committed to anything (save their "image" and chart numbers) is also a bit of a joke. And a pretty lame one at that!

These nameless mercenaries don't even demonstrate that kind of commitment in their music: why on earth would they be bothered to go to all that trouble to put anything else into it? All they need (and care) to do is find a kind of lowest common denominator of commercial "acceptability." Yes, you Christian crypto-fascists, it is a joke! The only problem is - you're not laughing.

I'm not laughing anymore, either. I've started to receive too many questions and letters from confused and impressionable young people wanting to know if it's true that we worship the devil. Who is it that is corrupting the minds of young Americans?

Let us not for one minute forget that this is the same self-righteous mentality that has put itself to work persecuting witches, Christians, Jews, Quakers, Indians, Catholics, Negroes, Communists, hippies and capitalists down through the ages. There's always somebody to kick you when you're down. It seems like every group has taken its turn at one end of the stick or the other. From the bitter oppressed to the righteous oppressor is a very short step.

Speaking for myself, as lyricist and drummer for "Rush", and one of those accused of this heinous crime, I must object, Your Honors. Far from being a closet Satanist, I confess crudely, I don't even believe in the old b*****d! I wonder if that's better or worse in your eyes, Grand Inquisitor?

I can certainly assure you that my lyrics contain no "demonic" secret messages or cleverly concealed mystical commercials. Nothing like that, I'm afraid. It is not only absurd and pathetic, but it is also totally incompatible with my philosophy, my work and my beliefs.

I get all kinds of letters from people like this whose perceptions are narrowed and distorted by pre-set values and ideas, telling me the most fantastic things that they have somehow "discovered" in my words! As is ever true - they find what they want to find. Fair enough. I know what I put in there. It isn't that, and it isn't this either. Period.

I don't wish to offend anyone's genuine beliefs, as it is a fundamental tenet in my philosophy that people should believe what they choose to believe. It must be stated, though, that when you've "got" religion, like Siddhartha, you find it everywhere you look. And when you've got evil, you'll find it everywhere you look, too.

Ah! It's the old "recorded backwards" trick again, is it Watson? Ha! I'm sure you could play "The Star Spangled Banner" backwards and find a secret message there too. Wouldn't Francis Scott Key be surprised at your cleverness! How do you suppose he knew what it said in 1812?

Don't you think something as vague as this is rather like a Rorschach ink-blot, or cloud shapes? Interpretation is based on the perceiver's state of mind - not on any objective reality. An ink-blot is a cloud is a song - frontwards or backwards. One finds what one wishes to find.

Yes, there's something subliminal at work here all right. The subliminal and poisonous sickness that dwells in the minds of these fearful and pompous so-called Christians. And they even call themselves a "Fellowship." Think about that for a minute. Then think about what this paper and others have accomplished by giving innocent ink and paper over to this kind of drivel. You readers don't know that I would never even use the kind of grammar that these people have attributed to me, let alone the insipid and valueless supposed message. Listen to this: "Oh Satan, you, you are the one who is shining. Walls of Satan, walls of sacrifice; I know it's you are the one I love." That's disgusting. I mean really. You just know these people have to be sick. If you don't believe me, ask my Mom!

 

Damn, he's a great writer!

 

 



Edited by Rushman
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 09:09
Originally posted by Flyingsod Flyingsod wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Deep down inside I don't think everyone is a true atheit, it's more because thay have been hurt in their faith somehow, and so go against it.




 I get so sick of hearing that. Seems  3 out 5 times I tell someone I don't belive in god I get the "your just mad at god becasue something really bad happened in your life" comments. They make no sense when there was never any faith to rebel against in the first place. Some people just have minds that only analyze facts and we just dont see any facts that add up to a supreme being.

 An atheist might evangelize fro similar reasons that a religious person would. They care. Perhaps this atheist evangelizer sees religions as wasting peoples time and especially money. Maybe he just wants them to be able to be free from the scam and ejoy this life to its fullest without artificial restrictions imposed by most religions. I'm not prosyletizing...just some thoughts on the matter.

 Ive worked in a hospice  long ago but I have never seen anyone on thier death bed revert from atheism although I am sure it happens. Most patients Ive delt with come in with religous beliefs that just get real strong near the end.  Also Ive never had anyone on thier death beds talk religion with me. Almost without exception (when they had composure enough to talk with a lowly orderly type) they lectured on the importance of spending time with family as opposed to working hard at the expense of family time. The first few times I dismissed it as the  ramblings of those near death but the persistance of the subject from those dying eventually made me accpet it. I mean who knows better what is important in life than those about to loose it. and so many of them said it...


Hmmm that had nothing to do with prog or even music. way OT  hehe  Ok to make this on topic I will tell everyone to listen to  PiRATES  by Emerson lake and palmer. Why? because it is important to keep the earths temperature down. Check it out here


 Well stated!  I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread, probably because I too am an atheist.  I came from a Christian family and even though I tried going to church on several occasions it was always an effort to force myself to believe in any of it.  My rationale being that believing in God or Christ was no different than believing in the Loch Ness Monster or the Tooth Fairy.  It is just fantasy and make believe.  I am more scientific in that I want hard evidence.  However I do believe that life exists outside of planet earth, though I have no proof.  But, the universe is so vast and complex how could life not exist elsewhere?  Of course this is just me going on another tangent. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 08:01

Nick Mason is an atheist. A quote can be found here:

http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Nick_Mason

As other people already have mentioned, Gilmour is also an atheist, but I believe Waters has a religious or spiritual belief of some kind (cannot remember the quote or the interview). Dunno about Wright (or Barrett for that matter). 

if you click further on "Recording Artist" on that web page, you will find further comments from artists who are either atheists or very sceptical of religious belief.

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