Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - While my guitar gently weeps...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedWhile my guitar gently weeps...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
Raff View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24392
Direct Link To This Post Topic: While my guitar gently weeps...
    Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:34
As most of you know by now, I'm not a musician. I don't deny that, at some time in my life, I would have liked to learn how to play an instrument. However, I never did, and that of course has influenced the way I listen to music. I've been a music lover for most of my life, but the fact of not having any musical ability or training prevents me from appreciating the finer technical points of a band or musician's performance. While I can understand if someone is singing out of tune or is just bashing away at their instrument instead of actually playing it, I wouldn't be able to recognize, for instance, if a tune is played in 5/4, 7/8 or whatever.

What I mean by this long preamble is, non-musicians like me listen with their ears, but especially and chiefly with their heart. This is why we may have a distinct preference for those musicians who can express real emotion through their instruments, and tend to dismiss gratuitous displays of soulless technical proficiency.

Although prog is characterised by the fundamental role of keyboards, it is nonetheless an aspect of rock music - and the archetypal rock instrument is the guitar. Guitarists are very often the rock heroes by definition, and rock fans do not like anything better than to argue about the respective merits of their favourite six-stringers. For years I've witnessed a raging debate between the supporters of the shredding school of guitar players and those who instead prefer a bit more feeling with their technique. Since I've been a forum member I've seen quite a number of polls about "emotional guitarists", with people who didn't even know what that "emotional" meant.

As for myself, I couldn't care less whether - as I have recently read on a magazine - the younger generation of shredders far outstrips the likes of Page and Blackmore in the technical stakes. To me, listening to Jimmy's solo in "Stairway to Heaven" or to Ritchie's magnificent, crystal-clear sound - or even to Iommi's harsh, monstrous wall-of-sound riffing - gives me much more than an entire album of Petrucci pyrotechnics would ever do.

So, what's your take on that, my dearest fellow forum members?
Back to Top
crucify_the_ego View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 20 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:39
I agree completely - soul should come first, then virtuousity. That's why I like David Gilmour's guitar playing so much - he's not the most technical guy in the world, but when he plays, every note matters. Steve Hackett does that for me, too.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:43
Originally posted by crucify_the_ego crucify_the_ego wrote:

I agree completely - soul should come first, then virtuousity. That's why I like David Gilmour's guitar playing so much - he's not the most technical guy in the world, but when he plays, every note matters. Steve Hackett does that for me, too.


couldn't agree more... every note should matter.. just as every brush stroke matters to a painter...


The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
Trickster F. View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:44
I have been playing music for almost a year myself, and I still haven't "got" many things the forum members discuss. On top of it all, I have begun to study music theory on my own only a week ago, and I can't say I am being fascinated.
 
I agree that music is about perception by heart, rather than by mind. And in spite of "maturing" in my tastes over the years, I still would rather prefer something commercial over something over the top, and extremely technical, although that does not mean I can not appreciate both.
 
 -- Ivan
sig
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:52
Originally posted by ivansfr0st ivansfr0st wrote:

 
I agree that music is about perception by heart, rather than by mind. And in spite of "maturing" in my tastes over the years, I still would rather prefer something commercial over something over the top, and extremely technical, although that does not mean I can not appreciate both.
 
 -- Ivan



hey Ivan... the difference could be is the 'over the top' 'extremely technical' a gimmick or a mean to an end.  One of the best complements I've seen written about Yes was that it is highly complex technical music but that was not done for the meer sake of doing so... it was a tool so to speak. A argument Ive seen writen in the reverse about VdGG.. it was all about the complex,  the wierd... but never really had a point to it.
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
MuzikLuva View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 22 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 14:57
As a musician who was born into a very muiscal family, I couldn't agree more.  The only music I don't enjoy is noise, of which there is a lot of out there.  As a composer, I try to paint a picture with my music.  Every note is a feeling, an expression.  While I compose mostly for myself, friends and family, those who have listened to my music have been able to appreciate this.  One friend, who later collaborated with me on mixing my music, asked me why it seems I never really finished a song.  I don't usually fade out and I'm always adding something else.  I explained to him that I'm always hearing something else, feeling like there is something else to be expressed.
Back to Top
Fassbinder View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 27 2006
Location: My world
Status: Offline
Points: 3497
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:08
micky:
 
in my eyes VdGG were all about the spirit (especially Hammill's playing, which is considered to be not too much professional). Also I don't see the complexity in the VdGG music; it is even too simplistic, I think.
 
As for the attitude to the techniques against the "soul" playing -- I have no musical knowledges, and always prefer the "what to play" upon the "how to play". For example, I never understood what is the beauty in Hendricks's gutar playing, but liked Gilmour's one (when I liked PF).
Back to Top
mystic fred View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:09
My you have been busy today GR!Thumbs Up
May i say i took up the guitar quite late in life to give myself a deeper insight into music and i believe it has to a degree, as to understanding the nuts and bolts of it a little better.  i strongly encourage you to learn, it is so rewarding -  never too late you know!
As for soul and feeling in playing, i don't think flashy speed shredding is everything, in fact i find it quite intimidating and wearing.  i bet Clapton, Page or Gilmore could play just as fast if they wanted to, but wouldn't want to lose their audience in the rush!
Prog Archives Tour Van
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:12
Originally posted by MuzikLuva MuzikLuva wrote:

As a musician who was born into a very muiscal family, I couldn't agree more.  The only music I don't enjoy is noise, of which there is a lot of out there.  As a composer, I try to paint a picture with my music.  Every note is a feeling, an expression.  


Clap a clappie for you..  and no surprise to me, that as a  musician that thinks that way.. that you are a prog fan.  I should put this in my signature for as many times as I've said it but prog rock IS art.. sonic art. 
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:14
Originally posted by Fassbinder Fassbinder wrote:

micky:
 
in my eyes VdGG were all about the spirit (especially Hammill's playing, which is considered to be not too much professional). Also I don't see the complexity in the VdGG music; it is even too simplistic, I think.
 



hahah... my point was for illustrative use only.  I love VdGG and don't think they were complex for complexity's sake... however there are people out there who do think so. 
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
Tuzvihar View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 18 2005
Location: C. Schinesghe
Status: Offline
Points: 13494
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:15
Well said Ghost Rider!
"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."

Charles Bukowski
Back to Top
Dalezilla View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 28 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 5113
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:20
I agree with you, but there's one thing in your post that I don't agree with. It's the Petrucci part. Petrucci does shred sometimes I won't deny that, but he can also be emotional. Listen to the Hollow Years solo in Live at Budokan. If that isn't emotional then what is? Petrucci can shred, but he can do a lot of other things with the guitar. A lot of DT songs have really emotional guitar solos.
Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:27
Hmm, the music of VdGG is anything but simplistic. Sure, there are no real outstanding difficult-to-play instrumental parts, but the arrangements are very complex. Just try and analyse some VdGG riffs, and you will see the complexity there. One of the band's specialties is to play several different riffs simultaneously. That's hardly simplistic.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
AtLossForWords View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:29
I have been a musician for years.  I started playing brass insturments about eight years ago.  Then I recently was graduated from private bass lessons which I took for five years.  I am learning keyboards now, and I have some skill on guitar as well.  I have also studied music theory in classes.
 
This obviously changes the way I look at music too.  I can appreciate the shreading from guys like Vai, Petrucci, Rob Jarzmobek, and others, but I can also appreciate the the musical things that guys like Roine Stolt and Daniel Gildenlow do who are not so technically precise. 
 
There are different styles that players have, a musician should easily be able to recognize the different and unique musical things that all players do.  Petrucci isn't always shreding, and Stolt and Gildenlow have the ability to do very technical things. 
 
The only catch is sometimes it's hard to enjoy listening to players that are doing some that is just musically uninspired.  Some things that players that I won't name do have a tendancy to drive me nuts.  That's one of the drawbacks of being a musician.

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
Back to Top
WaywardSon View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:32
That is why Blackmore is my favourite guitarist of all time. If you take into account all the factors, emotion, unpredictability(that really is a good word to describe his style) and his clean style of playing, he was head and shoulders above all the rest in the 70`s.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:34
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Hmm, the music of VdGG is anything but simplistic. Sure, there are no real outstanding difficult-to-play instrumental parts, but the arrangements are very complex. Just try and analyse some VdGG riffs, and you will see the complexity there. One of the band's specialties is to play several different riffs simultaneously. That's hardly simplistic.



hahah.. I could think of a few adjectives about VdGG...but simplistic is not one of them haha Wink
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:37
Originally posted by RycheMan RycheMan wrote:

That is why Blackmore is my favourite guitarist of all time. If you take into account all the factors, emotion, unpredictability(that really is a good word to describe his style) and his clean style of playing, he was head and shoulders above all the rest in the 70`s.


even Jeff Beck?

I think Beck more than anyone even Blackmore deserves the unpredictable tag hahahah. 
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
WaywardSon View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:42
Something that could anger a few Petrucci fans, is that although he is a brilliant guitarist he has few really emotional solos (Lines in the sand is a good emotional solo)
But at the end of the day he is a "Berkley" taught musician while Page and Blackmore just have that natural ability to express themselves more.
 
Beck is also very good, in fact I think he is Blackmoreīs favourite guitarist. But for me Micky, itīs BlackersWink


Edited by RycheMan - July 03 2006 at 15:45
Back to Top
Fassbinder View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 27 2006
Location: My world
Status: Offline
Points: 3497
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:45
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Hmm, the music of VdGG is anything but simplistic. Sure, there are no real outstanding difficult-to-play instrumental parts, but the arrangements are very complex. Just try and analyse some VdGG riffs, and you will see the complexity there. One of the band's specialties is to play several different riffs simultaneously. That's hardly simplistic.



hahah.. I could think of a few adjectives about VdGG...but simplistic is not one of them haha Wink
 
Both BaldFriede and micky:
 
As I said, my musical knowledges are equal to zero. I cannot analyze any riffs. I think I just have chosen the wrong word. Don't know how to describe my thoughts. Well, not simplistic. Minimalistic approach, maybe? I don't know.
And, please, don't take me wrong about the VdGG -- it is my FAVOURITE group.
Back to Top
AtLossForWords View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 15:49
Originally posted by RycheMan RycheMan wrote:

Something that could anger a few Petrucci fans, is that although he is a brilliant guitarist he has few really emotional solos (Lines in the sand is a good emotional solo)
But at the end of the day he is a "Berkley" taught musician while Page and Blackmore just have that natural ability to express themselves more.
 
 
...and you've just done it
 
Something that is emotional could be seen as entirely subjective, so I think it would be better to debate if Petrucci has "feeling" in his playing.
 
You mention "Lines In the Sand" as an emotional Petrucci solo.  Will you allow me to name solos of Petrucci that I believe have "feeling"?
 
I will anyway.
 
Hell's Kitchen- Very similar to "Lines in the Sand" as far as style goes. 
Learning to Live- Come on this sound is audible emotion start to finish, the solo has to have feeling
Finally Free- Not really a solo, but more of a lead melody that is played to support the song
Spirit Carries On- One of the best blues performances ever.
Solitary Shell- If this doesn't show "feeling" Steve Howe never did either
Goodnight Kiss- Darker bluesier playing
Voices- Not many will argue with this one, "Voices" is as good of an example of Dream Theater coming togethor as a band to create a song more so than any other piece.
 
Petrucci's career has so many solos with "feeling" it would take far too long for me to name them all, but these are some of the best.

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.